Anti-striking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:19 pm

marvin8 wrote:"What's your opinion on" my post where I answered your question:
johnwang wrote:The following is what I don't understand. I cannot picture how this can happen.

"A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

Believe me, if there is an easy way to destroy the rhino guard, I'll be the 1st person like to know it. For each and every strategy that I teach, I also teach how to counter it, and how to counter those counters. There is nothing that you have suggested that I have not tested on my own students.

From my personal experience, every time I try to parry my opponent's rhino guard with 1 hand, my opponent's feet will shift. His footwork moves his body, his body move his arms, and his arms bounces my arm away.

It's just like you stand in front of a rhino. No matter how you may move around, the rhino always turns with you. It's rhino horn always face toward your face. The reason that my opponent can do this to me because he is only working on one thing while I try to do many things.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:35 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"What's your opinion on" my post where I answered your question:
johnwang wrote:The following is what I don't understand. I cannot picture how this can happen.

"A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

Believe me, if there is an easy way to destroy the rhino guard, I'll be the 1st person like to know it. For each and every strategy that I teach, I also teach how to counter it, and how to counter those counters. There is nothing that you have suggested that I have not tested on my own students.

From my personal experience, every time I try to parry my opponent's rhino guard with 1 hand, my opponent's feet will shift. His footwork moves his body, his body move his arms, and his arms bounces my arm away.

The issue is not destroying the rhino guard in the first stage.

The issue is you can be punched in the head in the second stage. It is the second stage of the rhino guard, where clinchers in MMA meet the same problem when trying to head lock and "arm wrap," which I discussed here:
marvin8 wrote:The video clips of Rousey vs Nunes (also see Rousey vs Holm) "use" the second stage of the Rhino Guard: extended arms separated, reaching for head and arm as you describe here:
johnwang wrote:The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.
marvin8 wrote:At :03, :07, :09, :11, :24 and :27, it is easy to punch on Ronda's (olympic judo medalist) head when she tries to block Nunes' punch and grab Nunes' head with an extended arm. (There is no single leg or double legs by Ronda. She tries to get head lock by extending arm. You might add this to your data collection.)
marvin8 wrote:As you said, "The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms." At that moment, "A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."


johnwang wrote:It's just like you stand in front of a rhino. No matter how you may move around, the rhino always turns with you. It's rhino horn always face toward your face. The reason that my opponent can do this to me because he is only working on one thing while I try to do many things.

It's like a matador, the bull does not "always turns with you." The bull horn does not "always face toward your face." Most of the time the matador has the skills to control and finish the bull. The matador does not use force on force. He uses a variety of skills including, feinting, deception, yielding, etc.

Here George uses the same skills of the matador to KO Cooney. George drops his left hand: feinting an uppercut to Cooney's body. This draws Cooney's energy forward onto his front leg, double weighting Cooney. While Cooney is double weighted: unable to change his momentum, George front side steps (entering the side door) and delivers an uppercut between Cooney's guard KOing him. If you are only concerned with technique rather than concept, you may not realize the skills of the matador and George:
marvin8 wrote:George Foreman attempts pushing opponent's lead guard hand down (an) from outside of punching range following with an uppercut. Then later, finishes with an angled uppercut:
Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:38 pm

marvin8 wrote:It's like a matador, the bull does not "always turns with you." The bull horn does not "always face toward your face." Most of the time the matador has the skills to control and finish the bull. The matador does not use force on force. He uses a variety of skills including, feinting, deception, yielding, etc.

Here is our disagreement. You assume that it's easy to punch on your opponent's head when he has rhino guard on. My personal experience show that it's very difficult (if not impossible) to do so.

In my experience, the rhino always turns with me. As I have said, the rhino's task (line up horn to my face) is much simpler than my task (feinting, deception, yielding, etc).
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:24 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:It's like a matador, the bull does not "always turns with you." The bull horn does not "always face toward your face." Most of the time the matador has the skills to control and finish the bull. The matador does not use force on force. He uses a variety of skills including, feinting, deception, yielding, etc.

Here is our disagreement. You assume that it's easy to punch on your opponent's head when he has rhino guard on. My personal experience show that it's very difficult (if not impossible) to do so.

There is no "our disagreement." You can only "disagree" with the historical data. Because, I am only stating what actually happened, not giving an opinion.

I did not "assume" but only stated what actually occurred in the Rousey vs Nunes fight. Again, the issue is not "it's easy to punch on your opponent's head when he has rhino guard on" in the first stage. The issue is getting punched in the head in the second stage of the rhino guard:
marvin8 wrote:The issue is not destroying the rhino guard in the first stage.

The issue is you can be punched in the head in the second stage. It is the second stage of the rhino guard, where clinchers in MMA meet the same problem when trying to head lock and "arm wrap," which I discussed here:
marvin8 wrote:The video clips of Rousey vs Nunes (also see Rousey vs Holm) "use" the second stage of the Rhino Guard: extended arms separated, reaching for head and arm as you describe here:
johnwang wrote:The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.
marvin8 wrote:At :03, :07, :09, :11, :24 and :27, it is easy to punch on Ronda's (olympic judo medalist) head when she tries to block Nunes' punch and grab Nunes' head with an extended arm. (There is no single leg or double legs by Ronda. She tries to get head lock by extending arm. You might add this to your data collection.)
marvin8 wrote:As you said, "The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms." At that moment, "A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."


johnwang wrote:In my experience, the rhino always turns with me. As I have said, the rhino's task (line up horn to my face) is much simpler than my task (feinting, deception, yielding, etc).

The fact is in most fights, there is a moment when the bull does not always turn with the matador as a result of the matador's skills. It is at that moment when the matador finishes the bull.

One can choose to ignore the empirical data and actual fights. But, the facts do not change.

marvin8 wrote: If you are only concerned with technique rather than concept, you may not realize the skills of the matador and George:
marvin8 wrote:George Foreman attempts pushing opponent's lead guard hand down (an) from outside of punching range following with an uppercut. Then later, finishes with an angled uppercut:
Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:50 pm

marvin8 wrote: the issue is not "it's easy to punch on your opponent's head when he has rhino guard on" in the first stage. The issue is getting punched in the head in the second stage of the rhino guard:

If both of A's arms are on B's side door (such as 1 hand push B's rhino guard, another hand punch on B's head).

If B is

- experienced, B will open his rhino guard, redirect A's pushing arm and still enter A's front door.
- not experienced, B will not open his rhino guard. B will wait for the next opportunity.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:21 pm

I think this thread should be talking about Daniel Cormier's "mummy guard"

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... ma-in-mma/

Video:

https://gfycat.com/BiodegradableGaseousBooby
"People in this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove, 2016
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11395
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:09 pm

I think that's essentially the same as the zombie guard
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:26 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I think that's essentially the same as the zombie guard

Agree! You use

- rhino guard to invite your opponent's arms to punch outside of your arms, you then push his arms up and enter in between.
- Chinese zombie guard to invite your opponent's arms to punch between your arms, you then push his arm down and enter above.

By using either guard, you try to restrict 1/2 you your opponent's striking function.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:13 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I think that's essentially the same as the zombie guard

Agree! You use

- rhino guard to invite your opponent's arms to punch outside of your arms, you then push his arms up and enter in between.
- Chinese zombie guard to invite your opponent's arms to punch between your arms, you then push his arm down and enter above.

By using either guard, you try to restrict 1/2 you your opponent's striking function.

Except for the difference in your rhino guard description here: "when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm. . . . arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed."

Your rhino guard description and Rhino Guard - Head Lock video shows a different timing than Daniel Cormier's. Daniel does not arm wrap a punch before it's retracted starting from punching range. That's why I asked if you had any Rhino Guard video showing retraction of a normal speed punch for clarification.

I included the UFC's Rousey vs Nunes fight. But, your response was:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Please point to which explanations or clips you "do not understand.

None of your clips use rhino guard. It has nothing to do with our discussion here.



marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:I'm only interested in the data for double under hooks, double over hooks, and head lock. In other words, what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm.

. . . Is your question, what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm, before the arm is retracted?
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:before the arm is retracted?

This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed.

marvin8 wrote:What is the difference between your problem and high level grapplers in the UFC?

There should not be any difference I assume. Some MMA guy does take arm wrap seriously.

marvin8 wrote:Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA

You asked, "what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm?" You stated, "This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed." Then, you said, "Some MMA guy does take arm wrap seriously." and included Bas doing an arm wrap.

Then I said, "I am only asking to see a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with a feeder moving, punching at normal speed and retracting the punch."
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:43 pm

marvin8 wrote:That's why I asked if you had any Rhino Guard video showing retraction of a normal speed punch for clarification.

If you wait for your opponent's punch to retract, your timing is off. When A punches B and B moves in. If B can kiss A, it doesn't matter whether A retracts his punch or not.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:52 pm

The only part of the rhino guard I really disagree with is the hand clasping, it seems like that would slow down the transition from guard to grappling or clinch or whatever. I don't think that it adds enough to be worth it
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:34 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:That's why I asked if you had any Rhino Guard video showing retraction of a normal speed punch for clarification.

If you wait for your opponent's punch to retract, your timing is off. When A punches B and B moves in. If B can kiss A, it doesn't matter whether A retracts his punch or not.

Your definition of rhino guard is undebatable. If you can arm wrap a punch before it retracts, it is ideal. I just don't picture there being enough time to do it. Nor am I sure I understand the timing and steps correctly.

I will post gifs of Daniel's entry to the headlock and finish of Stipe, in a little while.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:28 pm

marvin8 wrote:Your definition of rhino guard is undebatable. If you can arm wrap a punch before it retracts, it is ideal. I just don't picture there is enough time to do it. Nor am I sure I understand the timing and steps correctly.

As I have always said, "If you don't have a strong head lock, you should not use it." There is always some requirement for any strategy that you try to apply.

This is why the training require that when A punches B, B needs to move in at the same time. It takes B's courage. Since B's head is well protected, B will have more courage than A has.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:37 pm

oragami_itto wrote:The only part of the rhino guard I really disagree with is the hand clasping, it seems like that would slow down the transition from guard to grappling or clinch or whatever. I don't think that it adds enough to be worth it

I have tried different methods.

1. fingers locked.
2. tiger mouth hold thumb.
3. fist touch fist.
4. wrist touching.
5. ...

1 is still the strongest. The main purpose of 1 is to give beginners confidence. When they feel that their double arms is stronger than their opponent's single arm, they can be more relax and that will make the outcome to be in their favor.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:53 pm

marvin8 wrote:Your definition of rhino guard is undebatable. If you can arm wrap a punch before it retracts, it is ideal.

The entire Taiji principle "If you move, I'll move before you do." is ideal. My requirement is much less. If you move, I'll move at the same time (not before you do).

Many years ago, a friend of mine said, "If I keep moving back, your head lock will never be able to get me." His comment had bothered me for many years. I then found 2 solutions.

1. Add a hook on my opponent's body (only sticky is not good enough). When he moves back, his body will pull me into him.
2. When my opponent moves in, I move in too.

Since that day, the "head on collusion" became a very important part of my daily training.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Trick and 1 guest