Anti-striking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:42 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I mean that's great for head on engagement but not what I'm talking about here.

So you have rhino gaurd, I have cross hands. My right arm shoots up, out, down, in, making contact with your right arm and attaching, pulling it down and towards me while the left hand follows a similar Arc to strike.

The attack comes in at an angle outside the zombie arms so they aren't relevant. The strike from the second hand would land before they even split.

I have difficult to picture your strategy. Could you put up a clip to explain it?

I already gave "clips, videos and explanations picturing this strategy" a couple posts above, along with the other posters in this thread:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:You talk about fast, explosive, good timing, and moving skills. It all has to do with individual's training which is difficult to be applied for people with less MA training.

I try to use different approach which may not have anything to do with individual's MA skill/ability. I want to look at what make a punch to be effective.

1. space - you need space to generate your punching speed and power.
2. path - you need a clear path for your punch to travel.
3. target - you need a clear target to punch.

If I try not to give you 1, 2, and 3, your punch won't be effective. In order for me to do that, I need to

1. extend my arms in front of your face. This not only can block your vision, it also squeeze your space.
2. put my arms in your striking path. When you punch, you fists have to deal with my arms first before it can reach to my face.
3. hide my head behind my arms and between my shoulders.

My "rhino guard" can help me to achieve that.

When an opponent enters your side door by taking a forward side step, then uppercuts between your extended arms and clasped hands:
1. He has "space to generate his punching speed and power." Your "extended arms" will not be "in front of his face" and "block his vision."
2. He has "a clear path for his punch to travel." His fist does not “have to deal with your arms first before it can reach to your face.”
3. He has a clear target to punch. “Hiding your head behind your arms and between your shoulders,” can expose your chin and face to uppercuts, block your vision, limit your mobility, shorten your reach and create a door handle to control your center.

Your "rhino guard helps you to achieve that," by extending your arms, clasping your hands and hiding/tucking your head.

Side door concept: If you are too close to a door and and try to open it, the door will hit you in the face. Instead if you side step forward while pulling the door open, you will enter the door without getting hit. At that point, you can punch (uppercut) the door without getting hit.

Following are examples of entering the side door.

@ 4:53, Robert talks about pulling the door open to break structure. Opponent is no longer facing you. So, you are able to take advantage and control the opponent's balance and center of gravity.

chusauli
Published on Mar 19, 2014

A basic introduction to Push, Pull, and Wedge Concepts in Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Kuen. This was originally featured in Masters Magazine Winter 2011 Issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Os8O1rY8o8&t=4m53s

marvin8 wrote:George Foreman attempts pushing opponent's lead guard hand down (an) from outside of punching range following with an uppercut. Then later, finishes with an angled uppercut:
Image


mongoosefightsystem
Published on May 8, 2012

"Valley Girl Boxer" explains Olympic boxing strategy at Classic kickboxing gym in Pasadena:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQLfDtDhwKI

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:Super hypothetically, what happens if someone attacks the rhino guard with one hand to punch with the other hand? Is that a chance to arm wrap?

The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.

If A has entered B's side door or touches from outside the grappling range, the grappling game may not start. "The moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms," A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

"What's your opinion on this?"

"What's your opinion on this?"
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:45 pm

Does the rhino guard require a certain grip? Or can various grips be used?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:24 pm

everything wrote:Does the rhino guard require a certain grip? Or can various grips be used?

The rhino guard is the beginner level training. It requires you to "lock your fingers tightly". When you haven't developed your Peng Jing, it can give you something similar to Peng jing.

The Chinese zombie guard is the more advance level training after you have developed your Peng jing. You no longer need to lock your fingers. You just put your fist next to each other and separate whenever you need.

Image
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:44 pm

marvin8 wrote:If A has entered B's side door or touches from outside the grappling range, the grappling game may not start. The moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms," A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."[/color]

"What's your opinion on this?"

I truly don't understand what you are talking about here. My big fist (rhino guard) is always in front of your face. The moment that your hand try to punch me, the moment that your face will be open, my big fist will punch right at your nose. Unless you can move my rhino guard (big fist) away from your face. If you and I have the same Peng Jing, my 2 arms will be much stronger that your single arm. There is no way that your single arm can move my double enforced arms.

I have tested this over and over. The moment that my opponent's single arm tries to move my rhino guard, the moment that my rhino guard will bounce his single arm away. My rhino guard can then land on his face. Since my goal is not to punch my opponent's face with my rhino guard, I will always get a head lock instead.

Please do me a favor.

- Get yourself a partner.
- Use your rhino guard.
- Put your Peng Jing into it.
- Ask your opponent to use 1 arm to move/parry/destroy/... your rhino guard.

Ask him to try 20 times and see how many times that he can destroy your rhino guard.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:08 pm

Thanks, I tested it very casually, and it was as you describe. I did not try the tests marvin8 wants to try. I would also like to test some kind of non-grip, like maybe the Taoist greeting thing (one fist closed, one palm over it), so that there is the connection but not really.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:10 pm

The whole rhino guard discussion depend on that we agree "2 arm Peng Jing is stronger than 1 arm Peng Jing". If you think your 1 arm can destroy your opponent's 2 arms, this discussion will not be able to continue.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:02 pm

johnwang wrote:The whole rhino guard discussion depend on that we agree "2 arm Peng Jing is stronger than 1 arm Peng Jing". If you think your 1 arm can destroy your opponent's 2 arms, this discussion will not be able to continue.


Hi John. My Sifu often uses techniques where one arm reinforces the other. It's good stuff.
willie

 

Re: Anti-striking

Postby Trick on Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:42 am

Haven’t had the “force” to read all the posts, but has this developed from anti-striking to anti-rhinoguard, and rhinoguard is actually striking so now it’s anti-rhinoguard(strikes) ?? ....and is the premise here just about clashing head on
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:49 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:If A has entered B's side door or touches from outside the grappling range, the grappling game may not start. "The moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms," A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

"What's your opinion on this?"

I truly don't understand what you are talking about here. My big fist (rhino guard) is always in front of your face. The moment that your hand try to punch me, the moment that your face will be open, my big fist will punch right at your nose.

johnwang wrote:The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.

(I re-highlighted the parts of my quote that were left out/deleted. Please point to which explanations or clips you "do not understand.")

Your "big fist (rhino guard) is" not "in front of your opponent's face," when he is at your "side door or touches from outside the grappling range." As you said, "The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms." At that moment, "A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

johnwang wrote:Unless you can move my rhino guard (big fist) away from your face. If you and I have the same Peng Jing, my 2 arms will be much stronger that your single arm. There is no way that your single arm can move my double enforced arms.

I have tested this over and over. The moment that my opponent's single arm tries to move my rhino guard, the moment that my rhino guard will bounce his single arm away. My rhino guard can then land on his face. Since my goal is not to punch my opponent's face with my rhino guard, I will always get a head lock instead.

It is not necessary to "move your double enforced arms," in order for you to get punched in the face. If your opponent takes a forward side step and enters your side door or is out of grappling range, your rhino guard will not "land on his face" nor will you "get a head lock instead."
marvin8 wrote:When an opponent enters your side door by taking a forward side step, then uppercuts between your extended arms and clasped hands:
1. He has "space to generate his punching speed and power." Your "extended arms" will not be "in front of his face" and "block his vision."
2. He has "a clear path for his punch to travel." His fist does not “have to deal with your arms first before it can reach to your face.”
3. He has a clear target to punch. “Hiding your head behind your arms and between your shoulders,” can expose your chin and face to uppercuts, block your vision, limit your mobility, shorten your reach and create a door handle to control your center.

johnwang wrote:The whole rhino guard discussion depend on that we agree "2 arm Peng Jing is stronger than 1 arm Peng Jing". If you think your 1 arm can destroy your opponent's 2 arms, this discussion will not be able to continue.

No, it is not necessary to "destroy your opponent's 2 arm Peng Jing." "The whole rhino guard discussion depends on" if the opponent can enter your side door or touch your rhino guard from outside the grappling range. As you said, "The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms." It is at this point your opponent can punch your face. But, you can not grab him.

everything wrote:Thanks, I tested it very casually, and it was as you describe. I did not try the tests marvin8 wants to try. I would also like to test some kind of non-grip, like maybe the Taoist greeting thing (one fist closed, one palm over it), so that there is the connection but not really.

What tests? The above explanations are evident in the fight videos posted. So, it is does not require "testing."
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:56 am

Most evident from this discussion is that we have completely different understandings of what Peng Jing is and how to use it. The rhino gaurd is, in taijiquan terms and my opinion, just another example of double weighting.

There are a few instances of the strike I described in this demo, that's about as good as I can get for you
https://youtu.be/Cm5N01ZzZ8A
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1137
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:15 pm

marvin8 wrote:Please point to which explanations or clips you "do not understand.

None of your clips use rhino guard. It has nothing to do with our discussion here.

marvin8 wrote: "The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms." At that moment, "A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

The following is what I don't understand. I cannot picture how this can happen since B's big fist will always be in front of A's face..

"A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:45 pm

"What tests"

Just me trying some of this out for myself... although I'm theoretically interested in data and what other people can or cannot do and the % success of the techniques, it's a little like reading about someone else's taste test... after a while you want to try it. To some extent. (What highly technical, trained athletes can do probably does not apply to what I can personally do. I already know this from doing various sports. I'm only interested in what not-very-well-trained people can do, which is probably an extremely different assumption from everyone else here.)
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:31 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Please point to which explanations or clips you "do not understand.

None of your clips use rhino guard. It has nothing to do with our discussion here.

Say there are two stages to the Rhino Guard. The first stage is extended arms with hands clasped. The moment a hand touches the rhino guard is the moment the second stage starts.

The video clips of Rousey vs Nunes (also see Rousey vs Holm) "use" the second stage of the Rhino Guard: extended arms separated, reaching for head and arm as you describe here:
johnwang wrote:The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. The rhino guard is a temporary stage. It help to protect your head when you enter. After that the rhino guard's task is finished.


johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: "The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms." At that moment, "A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

The following is what I don't understand. I cannot picture how this can happen.

"A punches B in the face from the side door or outside the grappling range without giving B "a chance to arm wrap."

You do not have to "picture" you can watch It "happen" in the fight (Foreman and Nunes) and demonstration (Chu and olympic woman boxer) videos that I posted. George Foreman uses the side door and Nunes controls the distance to knockout their opponents. Rousey continued to get punched in the face while extending her arms and attempting to grab Nunes' neck. What part of the videos, explanations, timestamps, transcriptions and highlights do you not understand or disagree with?

Here are two methods to punch the clincher's head while not giving clincher a chance to headlock and arm wrap (used in the Foreman and Nunes fights):

Control position (angle) — (Foreman fight) One way is to enter the side door (see Foreman, Chu, olympic woman boxer, video clips and explanations). Puncher enters side door and punches (uppercut) clincher's exposed head (extended arms, head tucked) before clincher can turn around, square his shoulders and grab puncher's neck.

Control range (distance) — (Nunes fight) For sake of the topic there are four ranges:
1. Kicking: Kicks
2. Punching: Punches land on clincher's face. But, clincher cannot reach puncher's neck in this range. Puncher's goal is to control the distance and stay in the punching range as much as possible, staying outside of clincher's reach. (OP reads clincher only clinches.)
3. Clinching: In this range, clincher can reach puncher's neck and arm wrap. However, puncher tries to stay out of the clinching range as much as possible.
4. Grappling: Ground work
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:08 am

johnwang wrote:I have tested this over and over. The moment that my opponent's single arm tries to move my rhino guard, the moment that my rhino guard will bounce his single arm away. My rhino guard can then land on his face. Since my goal is not to punch my opponent's face with my rhino guard, I will always get a head lock instead.

Please do me a favor.

- Get yourself a partner.
- Use your rhino guard.
- Put your Peng Jing into it.
- Ask your opponent to use 1 arm to move/parry/destroy/... your rhino guard.

Ask him to try 20 times and see how many times that he can destroy your rhino guard.

everything wrote:"What tests"

Just me trying some of this out for myself... although I'm theoretically interested in data and what other people can or cannot do and the % success of the techniques, it's a little like reading about someone else's taste test... after a while you want to try it. To some extent.

I was confused when you said, "I did not try the tests marvin8 wants to try." Because, I never mentioned testing anything. Nor did I suggest to not test anything.

I was confused when johnwang said, "my rhino guard will bounce his single arm away." Because earlier, johnwang said the moment the Rhino Guard is touched it is "separated into 2 arms" and arm wraps. So, I am not sure of the purpose of the test.

everything wrote:(What highly technical, trained athletes can do probably does not apply to what I can personally do. I already know this from doing various sports. I'm only interested in what not-very-well-trained people can do, which is probably an extremely different assumption from everyone else here.)

To better oneself at an art or sport, it can help to study what the higher level players do. Most of the time they are doing the basics, only at a higher level. In fighting, the average person can learn and practice controlling range (distance) and position (angles).

One shouldn't try to learn "what not-very-well-trained people can do." It is better to learn from more well trained, knowledgeable, experienced practitioners.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:51 am

yes, just gotta know where you're at, realistically. anyway, the taste test analogy is my main analogy. the purpose is just to see what you really think after the taste test, not studying the other tasters' results.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest