Tension > relaxation

[LaoDan]

They are not the product of years of slow motion forms practice or standing meditation.

It appears like our understandings differ. I wrote my understanding of this subject in the following article (and others):
http://slantedflying.com/taijiquan-moving-through-molasses/

[Bao]

. Do you need to have huge muscles? no. Do you need to have highly trained muscles?

Ok, lets explain in pure physics:
Power = mass plus speed/acceleration. Speed is much more important than mass. Double the mass means double power, double Speed means four times the power. If you stop the speed with tension, you stop the transmission of force. If you want to maintain the transmission, your movement must continue into the target.

a knot in a string does not illustrate tension, a womens hair hanging strait from gravity is an image of tension

I guess it hangs up in the air by Magic? Maybe qi?

Ironically, the image of Song is more appropriate to illustrate tension then relaxation.

The image of song is a body in movement that moves freely and coordinated without unnecessary tension.

Honestly, I believe you should do some practice and testing by yourself.... This is not theory we are speaking about, but our own practical experience.

[marvin8]

The video about the boxers is a perfect example of people who have developed a high level of tension control. Those boxers are the product of years of training their mental muscular ability so as to utilize tension with effective timing. They are not the product of years of slow motion forms practice or standing meditation. Do you need to have huge muscles? no. Do you need to have highly trained muscles? yes. Using tension is not about more and more and more, but rather about controlling the timing and degree.
a knot in a string does not illustrate tension, a womens hair hanging strait from gravity is an image of tension. Ironically, the image of Song is more appropriate to illustrate tension then relaxation.

Can you support your statements "boxers is a perfect example of people who have developed a high level of tension control. Those boxers are the product of years of training their mental muscular ability so as to utilize tension with effective timing?"

On the contrary, boxers "develop a high level of" relaxation. "Boxers are the product of years of training" relaxation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRVC-WVE02s

[charles]

The video about the boxers is a perfect example of people who have developed a high level of tension control... Using tension is not about more and more and more, but rather about controlling the timing and degree... Ironically, the image of Song is more appropriate to illustrate tension then relaxation.

Words only go so far in describing something that is experiential. One can describe a cup as half full or half empty: two ways to describe the same phenomenon. One could say one relaxes the entire body and selectively tenses where needed, or one can say one tenses the entire body and selectively relaxes what where needed. The result CAN be the same, though isn't necessarily.

Similarly, there are different methods that CAN eventually achieve similar results, though not necessarily.

It isn't clear whether or not yours is a case of semantics - meaning the same thing but using different words - or that you are describing something that is different.

[charles]

Ok, lets explain in pure physics:
Power = mass plus speed/acceleration. Speed is much more important than mass. Double the mass means double power, double Speed means four times the power. If you stop the speed with tension, you stop the transmission of force. If you want to maintain the transmission, your movement must continue into the target.

That isn't physics. It uses terms found in physics, but isn't a correct application of those terms.

[rojcewiczj]

The boxing coach says relax and then "pop" them. You relax so that you can pop them with tension. Boxers learn how to relax as a necessary part of focusing the moment of tension, in fact to maximize the tension through timing. Indeed you can say the glass is half full or half empty. What I see is a tendency in the internal community prefer a cup of gass to any liquid at all. But of course you don't need a cup for gass, just as you don't need exercise for relaxation.

[charles]

What I see is a tendency in the internal community prefer a cup of gass to any liquid at all.

It seems that you haven't understood what "internal" martial arts are about or how they are traditionally trained. Asserting what they are/are about without having significant insight into them makes discussion rather fruitless.

[marvin8]

What I see is a tendency in the internal community prefer a cup of gass to any liquid at all.

It seems that you haven't understood what "internal" martial arts are about or how they are traditionally trained. Asserting what they are/are about without having significant insight into them makes discussion rather fruitless.

. . . nor boxing and sports (e.g., throwing a baseball or football).

The boxing coach says relax and then "pop" them. You relax so that you can pop them with tension. Boxers learn how to relax as a necessary part of focusing the moment of tension, in fact to maximize the tension through timing.

You relax so that you can pop them like a chain or whip, not "with tension."

The following describes a kinetic chain punch, which has been proven to generate more power by studies and punching power measurement equipment.

The six harmonies exercise is great for practicing your tai chi movement. Learn to move your joints individually from a professional tai chi instructor in this free martial arts video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN-SBntIUmM[

[Bao]

Charles, it was obviously a very simplified version, and yes not very correct. How much detail do you think is necessary? Shouldn't we separate the body into stationary mass and relativistic mass? And discuss how the body correlates with different theories of movement? I don't know how far that would lead in a discussion about relaxation.

"A property called the relativistic mass is defined as the ratio of the momentum of an object to its velocity. Relativistic mass depends on the motion of the object, so that different observers in relative motion see different values for it. If the object is moving slowly, the relativistic mass is nearly equal to the rest mass and both are nearly equal to the usual Newtonian mass. If the object is moving quickly, the relativistic mass is greater than the rest mass by an amount equal to the mass associated with the kinetic energy of the object."

Anyway, the discussion is pointless when the ts doesn't understand the relationship between removing unnecessary tension, the efficiency of movement, and relaxation. Apparently everyone knows how to relax properly and no practice is necessary.

[Trick]

The boxing coach says, tense up and pop on my focus_pads! Yeah that’s right flex that meat now for twelve rounds! …………Don’t think so.

[rojcewiczj]

The idea that one should remain tense at all times is absurd; absurd, like saying one should be relaxed at all times. Force will not travel without tension. A whip works by transferring tension from handle to tip.
If you train to understand tension and use it more effectively, then you are training to work with forces.
If you want to train relaxation then make sure you stand with your legs locked strait, because bending them will create tension. Make sure you don't lift your arms, because lifting them will create tension. Try not to stand up
strait because your back will have tension.

[charles]

The idea that one should remain tense at all times is absurd; absurd, like saying one should be relaxed at all times.

No one disagrees with that. So what is this discussion about? What point are you trying to make?

You started this thread by stating, "One thing that continues to confuse me is the relationship between tension and relaxation in internal arts." What is it that confuses you?

[P. Li]

Relaxation is one way to identify inefficient tension and is how you remove that tension.

[Trick]

The idea that one should remain tense at all times is absurd; absurd, like saying one should be relaxed at all times. Force will not travel without tension. A whip works by transferring tension from handle to tip.
If you train to understand tension and use it more effectively, then you are training to work with forces.
If you want to train relaxation then make sure you stand with your legs locked strait, because bending them will create tension. Make sure you don't lift your arms, because lifting them will create tension. Try not to stand up
strait because your back will have tension.

Yes absurd for sure. As “your tension discovery” is no discovery. You have just come to acknowledge the importance of relaxation in a reverse kind of way but yet not somehow…… Yes your approach to that seem confused.

[marvin8]

The idea that one should remain tense at all times is absurd; absurd, like saying one should be relaxed at all times. Force will not travel without tension. A whip works by transferring tension from handle to tip.
If you train to understand tension and use it more effectively, then you are training to work with forces.
If you want to train relaxation then make sure you stand with your legs locked strait, because bending them will create tension. Make sure you don't lift your arms, because lifting them will create tension. Try not to stand up
strait because your back will have tension.

Force is generated from the ground; transferred from foot to fist. Leg force, hip, shoulder and torso rotation is key. Tension reduces the flow of force (energy).

"The root is in the feet, issued through the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed through the fingers." —Tai Chi Classics

"A whip works by transferring" force "from handle to tip," not "tension."

"If you want to train relaxation then make sure you stand with" relaxed structure and alignment. It may take time to train this relaxation.