Tension > relaxation

[rojcewiczj]

One thing that continues to confuse me is the relationship between tension and relaxation in internal arts. It seems to be correct use of tension which creates the forces we use to move ourselves and effect objects around us. Without enough tension, the body can not bear external forces. So why do taiji people always talk about relaxing? of course one must be able to relax in order to control ones tension, but why do taiji teachers often talk as if relaxing is the goal itself? As if you can actually effect external objects without the necessary amount of tension.
I like archery and use a 60lb resistance re-curve. I had to train my shoulder muscles to be able to produce enough tension to pullback and control my bow. How would cultivating "release", "song", or relaxation ever substitute the need for enough muscular tension? It is the same with punching, kicking, and throwing. Lately I have had much better results from my techniques by only focusing on creating enough tension where I need it, without any core movement, spiraling, etc. When I just stand there and reach my arms towards my target and focus on maximizing tension at the moment of impact, I punch harder that when I press off my legs and rotate my waist. Why? Because it is the tension which creates the connection to the entire body, movement in itself does not create connection.
The argument for cultivating the ability to create and control tension is very clear to me. What is the argument for cultivating relaxation/ release?

[windwalker]

What is the argument for cultivating relaxation/ release?

No argument needed. Different methods

It depends on the type of force that one uses and how the energy developed from it is used to move or
effect someone.

"Consider a common phenomenon observed at a softball game - the collision of a bat with a ball. A batter is able to transport energy from her to the softball by means of a bat. The batter applies a force to the bat, thus imparting energy to the bat in the form of kinetic energy.

The bat then carries this energy to the softball and transports the energy to the softball upon collision. In this example, a bat is used to transport energy from the player to the softball. However, unlike wave phenomena, this phenomenon involves the transport of matter.

The bat must move from its starting location to the contact location in order to transport energy. In a wave phenomenon, energy can move from one location to another, yet the particles of matter in the medium return to their fixed position.

A wave transports its energy without transporting matter."

[charles]

why do taiji teachers often talk as if relaxing is the goal itself?

Either because they have misunderstood the goal or they are using it as a stepping stone towards that goal, without stating the goal.

As if you can actually effect external objects without the necessary amount of tension.

There are several stories related to Hong Junsheng, of which this is one:

Master Hong was training at his usual spot. Close by, some young muscular young men were playing basketball. During a break, one of those young man came over and asked Master Hong what he was doing and how useful was his “quan”. Master Hong points to a big rock and tells the young man to move it over to Master Hong’s position and then he will answer his question. The young man dutifully picked up the rock and moved it over to the feet of Master Hong. Master Hong then replied “This is my quan – moving the rock from there to here”. I did not get it when I first heard the story but now I see how it illustrates perfectly the concept of indirect power!

Another had to do with late in his life when he could barely walk, but could still easily best people at push hands practice. He asked how it was that he did not have even enough strength to lift a nearby rock, but could easily prevail at push hands against much stronger practitioners.

The argument for cultivating the ability to create and control tension is very clear to me. What is the argument for cultivating relaxation/ release?

It uses "strength" and "tension" in a different way. Learning to do that is the core of the art of Taijiquan.

[Trick]

Relax mean relax the extrinsic muscles thus working more with the intrinsic muscles.

[Bao]

So why do taiji people always talk about relaxing

Because relaxation is a skill. Most people move clumsy, uncoordinated and use unnecessary tension all around their bodies. You will understand what relaxation can do when you learn to relax deeper.

[LaoDan]

Most humans have not overcome their fight-or-flight response, and therefore respond to force with force/tension – the greater the force coming in the more force one tries to use against it (i.e., resisting). TJQ does not want to resort to force against force because in that condition the stronger person usually wins. We want to cultivate the ability to change appropriately rather than just being stronger than an opponent. Force against force leads to reduced changeability, and for TJQ it is the change that is emphasized in order to control/defeat an opponent.

[origami_itto]

You've already got all the tension you need and then some, so no need to train more of it

[marvin8]

One thing that continues to confuse me is the relationship between tension and relaxation in internal arts. It seems to be correct use of tension which creates the forces we use to move ourselves and effect objects around us. Without enough tension, the body can not bear external forces. So why do taiji people always talk about relaxing? of course one must be able to relax in order to control ones tension, but why do taiji teachers often talk as if relaxing is the goal itself? As if you can actually effect external objects without the necessary amount of tension.
I like archery and use a 60lb resistance re-curve. I had to train my shoulder muscles to be able to produce enough tension to pullback and control my bow. How would cultivating "release", "song", or relaxation ever substitute the need for enough muscular tension? It is the same with punching, kicking, and throwing. Lately I have had much better results from my techniques by only focusing on creating enough tension where I need it, without any core movement, spiraling, etc.
When I just stand there and reach my arms towards my target and focus on maximizing tension at the moment of impact, I punch harder that when I press off my legs and rotate my waist. Why? Because it is the tension which creates the connection to the entire body, movement in itself does not create connection.
The argument for cultivating the ability to create and control tension is very clear to me. What is the argument for cultivating relaxation/ release?

From a physics standpoint, an arm punch (e.g., no hip rotation, weight shift, etc.) with tension will have less power than a relaxed, full body punch. Tension slows down a punch making it softer:


The following describes a kinetic chain punch, which has been proven to generate more power by studies and punching power measurement equipment.

The six harmonies exercise is great for practicing your tai chi movement. Learn to move your joints individually from a professional tai chi instructor in this free martial arts video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN-SBntIUmM

Excerpt from " Tai Chi and Relaxation," http://mpgtaijiquan.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... ation.html:

"The Chen Old Frame First Routine helps to instill the three characteristics of song (looseness), yuan (roundness, centerness), and rou (pliancy). Song means not using stiff force. Many practitioners of Taijiquan will probably have been exhorted repeatedly to look for the quality of fangsong, or to let loose. Western texts often translate the term simply as "to relax," which fails to capture the energetic state that is actually required. the renowned Taijiquan historian Gu Luixin describes this state as one of the essential features of Chen style Taijiquan. He explained, "... you require looseness (song) to get pliancy (rou) and then softness to get hardness (gang). From hardness you need to be able to revert to softness. So the goal is to simultaneously have softness as well as hardness and to be able to alternate hardness and softness."
- David Gaffney and Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, The Essence of Taijiquan, 2012, p.185

Excerpt from "Benefits of Conscious Relaxation," http://mpgtaijiquan.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... ation.html:

"To be relaxed means to release tension, but not to let go of substance. There is a quality in-between stiff and loose which is stable, yet flexible, that has fullness without being rigid, that is calm in motion yet conveys a vigorous presence. For lack of an equivalent English word, I refer to this concept as flowing within firmness, firmness within flowing. Flowing and firmness do not gain support from a rigid skeletal posture or strength from muscular tension. Rather, their integrity comes from expansion. Expansion is the ability to spread out in all directions. This is the key to relaxing without collapsing."
- Ting Kuo-Piao, Understanding Flowing and Firmness, 2000

"Relaxation of the whole body means the conscious relaxation of all the joints, and this organically links up all parts of the body in a better way. This does not mean softness. It requires a lot of practice in order to understand this point thoroughly. Relaxation also means the "stretching" of the limbs, which gives you a feeling of heaviness. (This feeling of heaviness or stiffness is a concrete reflection of strength.) This feeling is neither a feeling of softness nor stiffness, but somewhere in between. It should not be confined to a specific part, but involves the whole body. It is like molten iron under high temperature. So relaxation "dissolves" stiff strength in very much the same way. Stiff strength, also called "clumsy strength," undergoes a qualitative change after thousands of times of "dissolution" exercises. Just like iron which can be turned into steel, so "clumsy strength" can be turned into force, and relaxation is a means of gradually converting it into force. Our ancestors put it well: "Conscious relaxation will unconsciously produce force." There is truth in this statement."
- Yang Zhenduo, "Yang Style Taijiquan", p 16

[Interloper]

When people in the internal arts talk about "relaxation," at least in my own experiences, they don't mean the the body is totally flaccid and loose like a noodle. There must be a harmonizing of relaxation and tension in order to maintain a structure and to generate power.

What they do mean, is that certain very specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia must be activated or acted upon in such a way that they create a dynamic tension of complementary opposing forces. These particular tissues are not the conventional ones that modern urban humans typically use to make physical movement and do physical work. In using them, the muscles that are typically used in human athleticism and movement are allowed to be completely relaxed -- the deltoids, for example, and the biceps and triceps muscles, other muscles of the upper back and shoulders. That allows the arms and shoulders to move freely and without having to work to generate power themselves. They become conduits for power generated elsewhere in the body. Also, outer muscles of the abdomen and torso can also be relaxed.

The sum of this, is the ability to move fluidly and without tension... because the tension is "limited" to select areas that one normally would not even be aware of, and the vast majority of the body is thus allowed to be in a relaxed state.

[LaoDan]

Lately I have had much better results from my techniques by only focusing on creating enough tension where I need it, without any core movement, spiraling, etc. When I just stand there and reach my arms towards my target and focus on maximizing tension at the moment of impact, I punch harder that when I press off my legs and rotate my waist.

You are likely being misled by your subjective assessment of “much better results” and “I punch harder.” If you are localizing the force to your arm by using the muscle tension there, then you are also localizing the feedback force to a smaller area than if you were more broadly connected with other parts of your body. The pressure you feel depends on the area it is distributed over; you will feel more pressure if you limit the area. But that does not necessarily mean more force is being transmitted to the target.

[rojcewiczj]

So far, the responses have been in line with what seems to be the general argument for relaxation, which I would summarize as: there is a special kind of power that come from a certain degree of relaxation.
I would turn that around and say: there is a special power that comes from a certain degree of tension. Which is more in agreement with the evidence of sports and martial arts performance? Even among the internal community, those
who perform at a high level demonstrate very precise use of tension, but it is clearly tension being used. Tension in itself does not localize force, it actually connects the body and allows force to travel through it. Only an insufficient and incorrect use of tension will cause the body to loose connection and create stiffness. Tension can be trained through precise movements in relation to various forms of resistance. Relaxation cannot truly be trained, knowing this, one is forced to talk in riddles and vague statements in order to explain, without explaining, the methods of training relaxation. Those with chronic tension problems will do much better to train correct tension through strength building exercises and movement isolation.
Of course relaxing to a certain degree is the appropriate base line of all activities, but one should focus on developing the ability to control and utilize tension.
This is my opinion, but I would very much like to hear and see examples that can truly make an effective counter argument. To say one master was very weak but still very powerful, isn't much to go on, they say Chen Fake lifted a man over his head to show his strength.

[LaoDan]

OK, if you want something that is scientific rather than “vague statements”:


One can have more muscle mass and still not hit as hard as someone with less muscle mass but used correctly. True, if used equally correctly, then the person with the greater mass will hit harder. If you want to hit harder, then start with the proper mechanics. If you want to add muscle mass later, then do it while maintaining proper mechanics.

[origami_itto]

I only really have my own experience to go by so I can't say I've seen anything supernatural or any "special power", just smart use of the body. Also hard to show what's passed hand to hand over text so not much good to come from that.

People sometimes say that relax is wrong because if you were completely relaxed you'd fall down. I don't necessarily agree with that logic. You can't relax so much you fall down unless you are unconscious or are intentionally trying to fall down. Physically you can do it, but psychologically it's impossible. The training is mostly physical up to a certain point where it becomes purely mental, pushing that point of relaxation.

More realistically, the problem is with "relaxation" causing a collapse of the limbs. It's hard to learn to maintain a good (for example) peng shape in the face of incoming force, requires peng energy. There's a gap between learning the shape and learning to express or manifest the energy.

To manifest the energy, the body has to be relaxed. Joints open and muscles soft, deep stabilizing muscles doing their automatic work and the surface binding fascia sliding around easy and comfy stretching and compressing. This allows force to flow through the structure to the ground and back out through the structure again without affecting the structure.

I believe this is because force travels like a wave through matter, it can go fast or slow but the principles are the same. You can see it in action by wiggling or waving a ball chain or string of pearls on a smooth table top or other surface. As you move it up and down the force travels in a visible wave. Our bodies don't behave precisely like a string of loose bodies, but it's a useful enough model.

If you tie a knot in the chain and go back to making waves, when it hits the knot the wave is changed, weakened. The force from the wave is consumed by the knot since it doesn't move as freely and more energy is required to move the mass.

Similarly, you can see the principle in action in the ocean, the invisible force that is present in the relatively flat surface beyond the breakers becomes visible as the shape of the shoreline catches and interrupts the free flowing waves. You can think of the shoreline as tension, you want the waves to break and scatter in your opponent, not yourself.

The reasons why that I can just pull off the top of my head are:
1) Force delivery
2) Force immunity

For #1) As marvin8 mentioned above, research shows that more force is actually delivered in a strike with a relaxed method of striking. The tension acts like a brake on the force you're generating. It feels strong, as mentioned earlier because you're using your muscles. But what is perceived strength? I say the more strength you perceive yourself to be using the weaker you are effectively. When you wrestle with a toddler you don't feel like you're strong, but to the toddler you're a juggernaut. When you're really manifesting the effortless strength we're looking for, it really is effortless, and feels like doing nothing at all.

For #2) Like the tension is a brake on outgoing force, so to does it catch incoming force. Eliminating the tension allows the force to flow through without damaging the structure itself. The common metaphor is a willow bending in the wind and surviving while an oak tree is toppled.

[LaoDan]

Relaxation cannot truly be trained, knowing this...

Your statement would probably be disputed by many practitioners on this forum. It does reveal what is probably a mental block that you may have. All that I can personally speak for are TJQ and ILC – both of which certainly train relaxation. If you do not think that relaxation can be trained, then you will automatically dismiss any relaxation training as not being possible, and therefore not valid. Even if it was available to you, you would likely consider it a waste of time and therefore you would not experience it. It is similar to a believe that “hitting like a girl” is always weaker than a fit male’s strike, and then you would not learn from the woman in the video that I linked to in my previous post (who hit harder than a male MMA fighter). If the science did not show it, then the participants in the video would not have believed it was possible – another mental block. It seems to me that your mental biases and mental blocks may be preventing you from being open to experiencing alternative methods of training.

[rojcewiczj]

The video about the boxers is a perfect example of people who have developed a high level of tension control. Those boxers are the product of years of training their mental muscular ability so as to utilize tension with effective timing. They are not the product of years of slow motion forms practice or standing meditation. Do you need to have huge muscles? no. Do you need to have highly trained muscles? yes. Using tension is not about more and more and more, but rather about controlling the timing and degree.
a knot in a string does not illustrate tension, a womens hair hanging strait from gravity is an image of tension. Ironically, the image of Song is more appropriate to illustrate tension then relaxation.