You've got to knock them out in fist fights

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You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby windwalker on Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:28 pm

Often people speak of competitive events and fighting often conflating both in the same context.

Jack Dempsey out lined his thoughts on this in
a book he wrote long ago...

http://bmsi.ru/issueview/50fc5c79-9b3d- ... ghting.pdf





5. Differences between Fist-Fighting and Boxing

Anger provides the


No. 1 difference between a fist-fight and a boxing bout.


Anger is an unwelcome guest in any department of boxing. From the first time a chap draws on gloves as a beginner, he is taught to "keep his temper"-never to "lose his head." When a boxer gives way to anger, he becomes a "natural" fighter who tosses science into the bucket.

When that occurs in the amateur or professional ring, the lost-head fighter leaves himself open and becomes an easy target for a sharpshooting opponent. Because an angry fighter usually is a helpless fighter in the ring, many prominent professionals-like Abe Attell and the late Kid McCoy- tried to taunt fiery opponents into losing their heads and "opening up." Anger rarely flares in a boxing match.

Different, indeed, is the mental condition governing a fist-fight. In that brand of combat, anger invariably is the fuel propelling one or both contestants. And when an angry, berserk chap is whaling away in a fist-fight, he usually forgets all about rules-if he ever knew any.



difference No. 2:
THE REFEREE ENFORCES THE RULES IN A BOXING MATCH; BUT THERE ARE NO OFFICIALS AT A FIST-FIGHT.


Since a fist-fight has no supervision, it can develop into a roughhouse affair in which anything goes. There's no one to prevent low blows, butting, kicking, eye-gouging, biting and strangling. When angry fighters fall into a clinch, there's no one to separate them.

Wrestling often ensues. A fellow may be thrown to earth, floor, or pavement. He can be hammered when down, or even be "given the boots"- kicked in the face- unless some humane bystander interferes. And you can't count on bystanders.


A third difference


is this: A FIST-FIGHT IS NOT PRECEDED BY MATCHMAKING.

In boxing, matches are made according to weights and comparative abilities. For example, if you're an amateur or professional lightweight boxer, you'll probably be paired off against a chap of approximately your poundage-one who weighs between 126 and 135 pounds. And you'll generally be matched with a fellow whose ability is rated about on a par with your own, to insure an interesting bout and to prevent injury to either. If you boast only nine professional fights, there's little danger of your being tossed in with a top-flighter or a champion.

The eight weight divisions in boxing-heavyweight, light heavy, middle, welter, light, feather, bantam and fly- were made to prevent light men from being injured by heavy men. Weight is extremely important, you know; for moving body-weight is punch. However, when a man is a heavyweight (more than 175 pounds) there's no top limit for him or his opponent. Remember: Willard, 245; me, 180.

It's unfortunate that in fist-fighting, destiny or luck makes the matches. Chance picks your opponent for a fist-fight regardless of size, weight, age, strength or experience. Nearly every chap has had the unhappy experience of being practically forced to fight someone larger than himself at some time in his life.


A fourth difference is:



THE DISTANCE OR ROUTE.

Modern boxing bouts are scheduled for a specified number of rounds, with a minute of rest between. In case neither contestant is knocked out or disqualified during the bout, the winner is determined by the number of rounds won or by the number of points scored.

When a fist-fight is started, however, it is informally slated to a "finish." There is no let-up, no rest, until one scrapper is knocked out or beaten so badly he quits. You don't win a fist-fight on points. Sometimes friends or the police halt a street scrap, but such interference cannot be counted upon. When a fellow squares off for a fist-fight, he should be geared to finish it. He must make his own "distance," his own "route."


Difference No. 5 is: FOOTING.



In the ring boxers enjoy the best footing that technicians can devise. They glide about on the firm, level surface of ring canvas. Chances of slipping are reduced to a minimum by the use of soft-leather boxing shoes; powdered resin is sprinkled on the canvas, and then the resin is ground into the soles of the shoes. Naturally there are no obstacles over which a boxer can trip, or over which he can be knocked (except, of course, the ring ropes).

The footing in fist-fights is a gamble. Fights occur usually where they flare up-on playing fields, streets, roads, ship decks, or in stores, offices, factories, saloons, dance halls, etc. And a fellow performs in whatever shoes he happens to be wearing.

He fights upon whatever surface chance has placed him, regardless of slipperiness, rocks, boxes, tin cans, and the like-and regardless of tables, benches, desks, chairs or other large obstacles. If a chap slips, trips, or gets knocked over something, he may strike his head against an obstacle, or against floor, sidewalk or curb. Many deaths have resulted from falls in fist-fights.

Let me suggest that any time you are about to be drawn into a fight, keep your head and make a split-second survey of your surroundings. Decide immediately whether you have fighting-room and whether you have good footing. If you haven't, try to force your opponent to shift to another battleground, where your knowledge of fighting will leave the percentage in your favor.

Yell at him, for example: "Okay, wise guy! You want to fight! Let's see if you've got the guts to come out into the street and fight me like a man!"
In 99 out of 100 cases you can force the other guy to move to an open spot by challenging his courage to do so. Don't let the action start in a crowded subway car, in a theater aisle, in a restaurant, office, saloon or the like. Keep your head and arrange the shift, so that you'll be able to knock his head off when you get him where you can fight without footing handicaps.

In concluding the differences, remember that your face can be cut much more quickly by a bare fist than by one encased in bandages and padded glove. From another angle, the boxer-with fist protected by bandages and glove-has less chance than the bare-fisted man of breaking a hand-bone or smashing a knuckle, in case the fist lands squarely on forehead or elbow.

Those major differences add up to one important total or conclusion:

THE POSSIBILITY OF GETTING HURT IS GREATER IN A FIST-FIGHT THAN IN A BOXING BOUT. FIST-FIGHTING IS GENERALLY MORE DANGEROUS THAN BOXING.

In connection with that danger, never forget: The longer the fight lasts, the longer you are exposed to danger. Moreover, the danger percentage against you generally increases with each passing minute of the fight.

When you square off, you hope to beat your opponent into submission in a hurry. But, as the fist-fight continues, you find you are not achieving your quick victory. You discover you are beginning to tire because of your exertions and because of your tension. Since you have no chance for rest periods, the longer you fight the more tired you become.

True, your opponent also may be getting fatigued; but you can't be certain about his exact condition unless he's blowing and staggering. You know for sure only that you're nearly "all in," and that he's still out there swinging at you. Accordingly, the longer he keeps fighting, the less chance you have of winning; but the greater chance you have of being battered, cut up, knocked down, knocked out, or injured.

Because of the danger in a fist-fight, it is imperative that you end the brawl as quickly as possible; and the best way to do that is by a knockout. The knockout is far more important in fist-fighting than in boxing, YOU'VE GOT TO KNOCK 'EM OUT IN FIST-FIGHTS.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby klonk on Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:28 pm

That part stood out to me too when I read the book. He's right, of course. You need to have a plan for ending the fight, decisively and, let us hope, quickly as well.
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby Giles on Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:42 am

Sound points and observations from an expert. I'd just make one observation regarding the transfer to the 'real world', at least in the year 2018.

Yell at him, for example: "Okay, wise guy! You want to fight! Let's see if you've got the guts to come out into the street and fight me like a man!"
In 99 out of 100 cases you can force the other guy to move to an open spot by challenging his courage to do so. Don't let the action start in a crowded subway car, in a theater aisle, in a restaurant, office, saloon or the like. Keep your head and arrange the shift, so that you'll be able to knock his head off when you get him where you can fight without footing handicaps.


If you can persuade and aggressor to shift the fight location, if there is enough 'negotation space' for that, then you almost certainly have the possibility to de-escalate in some way or simply to make your escape (using deceit if necessary). If you actually 'reschedule' the fight to somewhere else and then carry it through, then that's no longer self-defence. It's by mutual agreement (monkey dance). And if the other guy then goes down and is injured or worse, your head is on the line in legal (and moral) terms.
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:35 am

Giles wrote:Sound points and observations from an expert. I'd just make one observation regarding the transfer to the 'real world', at least in the year 2018.

Yell at him, for example: "Okay, wise guy! You want to fight! Let's see if you've got the guts to come out into the street and fight me like a man!"
In 99 out of 100 cases you can force the other guy to move to an open spot by challenging his courage to do so. Don't let the action start in a crowded subway car, in a theater aisle, in a restaurant, office, saloon or the like. Keep your head and arrange the shift, so that you'll be able to knock his head off when you get him where you can fight without footing handicaps.


If you can persuade and aggressor to shift the fight location, if there is enough 'negotation space' for that, then you almost certainly have the possibility to de-escalate in some way or simply to make your escape (using deceit if necessary). If you actually 'reschedule' the fight to somewhere else and then carry it through, then that's no longer self-defence. It's by mutual agreement (monkey dance). And if the other guy then goes down and is injured or worse, your head is on the line in legal (and moral) terms.


Good points.

"Don't let the action start in a crowded subway car, in a theater aisle, in a restaurant, office, saloon or the like. Keep your head and arrange the shift, so that you'll be able to knock his head off when you get him where you can fight without footing handicaps."

Small space, preferably with things lying around everywhere, sounds exactly like the place a person who suck at ground play (as I) would prefer to have the fight... No place for someone to run around and no place who someone would prefer for a ground fight, seems just fine...
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:38 am

You don't necessarily have to knock them out, just knock the fight out of them
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:42 am

Accordingly, the longer he keeps fighting, the less chance you have of winning; but the greater chance you have of being battered, cut up, knocked down, knocked out, or injured.

Because of the danger in a fist-fight, it is imperative that you end the brawl as quickly as possible; and the best way to do that is by a knockout. The knockout is far more important in fist-fighting than in boxing, YOU'VE GOT TO KNOCK 'EM OUT IN FIST-FIGHTS.


I appreciate his points that competing and fighting is different.
Here's also a problem in common sparring. Most people practice sparring with the competition mind set and turn it in a chasing points game. I am not sure what is the best way to practice Fighting with the Fighting mentality he speaks about. IMO traditional sparring is overrated as combat practice...
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:58 am

windwalker wrote:Often people speak of competitive events and fighting often conflating both in the same context.

Jack Dempsey out lined his thoughts on this in
a book he wrote long ago...

Most fighters do not conflate "both in the same context," but realize the differences between a competitive event and a fight that Jack Dempsey outlined.

Now, compare forms, partner drills, push hands, etc., in a school with "fighting." Which one is closer to fighting: a competitive event with a real resistant opponent or something else?

If something else, what practical training alternative is closer to "fighting," than competitive events?
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:06 am

marvin8 wrote:If something else, what practical training alternative is closer to "fighting," than competitive events?


Mostly you don't have months to prepare for a real fight...

This approach is more "real" if you ask me... ;D

https://youtu.be/FbUD7FRStbY
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:23 am

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:If something else, what practical training alternative is closer to "fighting," than competitive events?


Mostly you don't have months to prepare for a real fight...

This approach is more "real" if you ask me... ;D

https://youtu.be/FbUD7FRStbY

Most fighters know that too.

I said "practical." How long and often do you have to wait for an unarmed intruder to attack you in your home, before training with a resistant opponent? :)
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby grzegorz on Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:42 pm

I just attended Dragon House 29 in SF. I haven't been to a cage fight in a long time. I was impressed with the next generation of pro fighters because sure enough most fights probably lasted on 2 minutes and most were KOs or TKOs which led to a submission or ref stoppage. Needless to say MMA has become what it set out to be. Cage matches with quick finishes.
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:06 pm

I do not agree with everything in this video. But, it touches on the OP.

Martial Arts Journey
Published on Jul 29, 2018

There are many misconceptions about the difference between combat sports, self defense and personal safety. Paul Sharp an SBG BJJ black belt, self defense expert, police officer is here to answer some of the main questions about the confusion.

If you prefer to listen to the podcast version find it here:
https://anchor.fm/martialartsjourney/ep ... 3/a-a4ddij:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nDV-OGLTpA
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby windwalker on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:09 pm

marvin8 wrote:Most fighters do not conflate "both in the same context," but realize the differences between a competitive event and a fight that Jack Dempsey outlined.

Now, compare forms, partner drills, push hands, etc., in a school with "fighting." Which one is closer to fighting: a competitive event with a real resistant opponent or something else?

A good example of the conflation I mentioned. .

If something else, what practical training alternative is closer to "fighting," than competitive events?


Scenario training comes to mind which was not mentioned I would guess because of the mind set of the poster.
If one is talking about competitive events as Jack mentioned its different the mind set as he mentioned is also different.

Most teachers I know understand the different needs and have separate training programs addressing them.
One main point that he brought out is equality of fighters or combatantents one is regulated the other is not. One point he left out was that if one can
talk about moving to a better location, one might be able to not have to engage at all..How not to fight is a skill in itself

Having practiced white crane as a teenager I had a situation on a bus. I felt I didnt have room and told the guy lets get off at the next stop....
He made a quick movement, I hit him the mouth the bus driver stopped the bus and kicked me off it....

maybe lucky for me...stupid move on my part.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby Steve James on Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:56 am

I would only replace the word "anger" with the word "intent." I agree that good fighters don't get angry, but I believe that some boxers enter the ring with "bad intentions" that can be motivated by a strong dislike of the opponent. When Emile Griffith fought Bennie Peret, the fact that Peret had called him a gay guy led Griffith to want to give him a beating. Peret died afterward, though I'm sure that wasn't Griffith's intention.

And then there's motivation. In a street fight, fear is often more evident than anger. You fight because you're caught and have no other choice. When given the opportunity, people will kill when they're afraid as easily as if they were angry.

Anyway, both ring fighters and street fighters have to manage the same emotions. The best ring fighters rely more on their skill and training than anger or emotions, but he can't do without them, even some fear. Street fighters, or in a street fight, the management needs are the same; but, the lack of rules, and the differences in skill or abilities, make it much more difficult to do.
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby Peacedog on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:21 am

In my experience, the quickest way to stop a fight with minimal risk to yourself is to punch the other guy in the head.

Unlike on TV, a solid ungloved punch to the head will almost always drop a non-drugged/non-professional opponent. The reality is without training most people can’t take a shot to the head. That said, the risk of injury when they fall is high.

This is also why I recommend everyone engage in hand conditioning for six months at least once in life. It greatly reduces the risk of injuring yourself.
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Re: You've got to knock them out in fist fights

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:45 am

I totally agree with Peacedog, though it doesn't necessarily have to be punches. Hammer fists, the ridge of the palm, the heel of the palm and the oxbow work great as well.

I strongly advise people to use vertical punches, as the chance of injury is much lower, in my experience.
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