Hengjin

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Hengjin

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:54 pm

That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing. It seems like a lot of masters had the bright idea to mix and match arts to suit their own style. In China no one ever mentioned the art, but I'd heard of it from the forums.

I agree about the sensitivity training, though the trapping methods in Shanzhaiquan are very simple and only require drilling a little bit before being useful in sparring. Rather, figuring out which combinations work when and where is the important skill, but by categorising them as entering and finishing techniques even that process has been simplified. The Shili training is kind of like partner drills to test whether one has developed internal power.

I totally feel the same way about weapons training. That is why I returned to live near my Master again after already leaving when I finished my unarmed system. Strangely, time away from him also helped, as I had the chance to digest what I'd learned and make it my own. The weapons training is like equipment training, but also improves the other side of the body, reaction speed, timing, distancing, footwork etc.. Plus it's fun and now I know how to use a range of weapons!
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Re: Hengjin

Postby Interloper on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:48 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing. It seems like a lot of masters had the bright idea to mix and match arts to suit their own style. In China no one ever mentioned the art, but I'd heard of it from the forums.

As you know, when an "average Joe" takes a piece of this and that and puts them together, thinking he has created a new art, that is of course only a superficial cobbling of techniques. But when masters transcend the arts they came up in, they are in a position to fashion something whole, deep, and meaningful.

Chin Lik Keong had a lot of experience and mastery of the arts he studied, before he attempted to synthesize something from them. The thread he saw in common, running through all of them, was the internal methodology, and that is what allowed him to create a system that was not "cobbled together" from disparate arts. Everything becomes compatible when the underlying power driver is the same. My aikijujutsu teacher's sensei similarly spent decades in deep study of several very old arts, as well as neo-classical ones, before crafting a system that met his particular needs and focus. In turn, Chin Lik Keong's son has spent decades creating and refining a pedagogy, teaching lexicon and curriculum that can be more easily understood and learned by Westerners, and that is why ZXD ILC has taken off and is growing in popularity in Western cultures.


I agree about the sensitivity training, though the trapping methods in Shanzhaiquan are very simple and only require drilling a little bit before being useful in sparring. Rather, figuring out which combinations work when and where is the important skill, but by categorising them as entering and finishing techniques even that process has been simplified. The Shili training is kind of like partner drills to test whether one has developed internal power.

Our aikijujutsu system, Hontai Hakkei Ryu, has something that sounds a lot like Shili training. We do ninin undo (two-person drills) that require the partners to meet and match each other in varying kinds of internal applications, standing and in movement or under duress.
There's a lot of trapping, sticking, deflections, compressing and stuffing, locks, chokes, take downs, throws and pins, kicks, punches, and strikes... empty-handed and with weapons. And, the weapons are in themselves combat systems that require solo and partner drills and training. But all of these things are based on specific, shared principles and concepts, and once you understand those, the techniques flow spontaneously, and the process becomes formless. We train them with a partner, with and without the internal methods. The difference is staggering when we compare the effects.


I totally feel the same way about weapons training. That is why I returned to live near my Master again after already leaving when I finished my unarmed system. Strangely, time away from him also helped, as I had the chance to digest what I'd learned and make it my own. The weapons training is like equipment training, but also improves the other side of the body, reaction speed, timing, distancing, footwork etc.. Plus it's fun and now I know how to use a range of weapons!

Yes! Weapons add an entirely different dimension, with varying ranges, uses, and targets. It opens our eyes to a higher level of understanding of combat and the use of internals, and it's also a blast!
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Re: Hengjin

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:31 pm

My Master is such an individual, in that he has truly understood the arts that he studied over several decades and synthesised them into one cohesive style that he alone can use to fight. I'm not sure what exactly he saw, but to me the underlying structure and power-generation is what unites them. For sure there was modification on his part to make it all fit into his mould as well, but when he is doing his thing it all flows beautifully - and hurts - so no one questions it.. =P

I am not such master. I followed his instruction as best as I could and systemised a large portion of his knowledge - as much as I wanted or was able to learn in over four years of study. Of course, no two people fight alike, so I did put my own spin on it as well, but with his blessing. I like what you said about crafting it for his own needs and focus. Exactly that. Like the son of the founder of your art, my changes were mostly to streamline things and make them easier to digest - and to accommodate sparring with boxing gloves. Unlike him, I have not spread the word as of yet.. Give it time, though!

Your Aikijujutsu system sounds quite interesting as well. By the sound of it you are on the right track, assuming that you test yourself in sparring, of course. I don't know much about that art, only some about Aikido, which perhaps took things too far.. Sometimes the focus can become too narrow, so that things are unrealistic. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as they say.. :P
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Re: Hengjin

Postby Interloper on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:28 pm

Maarten, four years of intensive study and training is a solid foundation and major first-step, like earning a university baccalaureate degree, and perhaps even more. It should be exciting to see where your interests and opportunities take you with the art. It will continue to forge you, but you will also forge and tweak it according to your nature. Who knows -- maybe eventually it will become one of the pillars of a system of your own devising, many years down the road.
About the Japanese internal art I study --
Aikijujutsu is the "parent" of aikido, in that aikido was founded by a former student of aikijujutsu who adapted some of its movement and principles into an art form that suited him and his particular ideology. There, the relationship ends, however. My teacher's teacher used Daito Ryu aikijujutsu as one of several pillars in the synthesis of his personal art, but he also studied a very old weapons art, an old bodyguard art, and a system of ground grappling (ne waza), among other things, to craft a system he could use for his own purposes.

Here are a few short clips my teacher compiled that give some idea of how internals are expressed, with and without weapons. Although stylistically this looks very different from what you do, and from ZXD ILC, it actually possesses all of the same internal qualities and mechanisms.







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Re: Hengjin

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:51 am

Haha, thank you. Yes, my four years were pretty intense.. The 1.5 years of Taijiquan and 1.5 years of Sanda were intense too, but not as fruitful as learning from a true master.. Let's see what happens down the line. As I just wrote, I'll have a chance to use this stuff when it counts.. :P

I looked up I Liq Chuan on Youtube and I can see how those two arts that you train would go together well. As long as there's a lot of sparring and fencing to go along with this type of training (and this stuff is more difficult to use in sparring, so it becomes even more important), then it should be quite interesting. :)

I'm not sure that what we do is the same. My internal training allows me to plow through defenses. There's nothing subtle about it. Yours seems like you want to join with them, like in Taijiquan. Your method is much more difficult to pull off, but is a sight to behold when it does. You have your work cut out for you!
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Re: Hengjin

Postby Interloper on Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:46 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Haha, thank you. Yes, my four years were pretty intense.. The 1.5 years of Taijiquan and 1.5 years of Sanda were intense too, but not as fruitful as learning from a true master.. Let's see what happens down the line. As I just wrote, I'll have a chance to use this stuff when it counts.. :P

I looked up I Liq Chuan on Youtube and I can see how those two arts that you train would go together well. As long as there's a lot of sparring and fencing to go along with this type of training (and this stuff is more difficult to use in sparring, so it becomes even more important), then it should be quite interesting. :)

I'm not sure that what we do is the same. My internal training allows me to plow through defenses. There's nothing subtle about it. Yours seems like you want to join with them, like in Taijiquan. Your method is much more difficult to pull off, but is a sight to behold when it does. You have your work cut out for you!


I didn't say that what we do is the same. ;) I said that the principles of internal method are the same -- but that we use them in different ways, to accomplish different things. In our aikijujutsu, we don't "join" with the opponent, we make him do what we want, against his will. lol. That's the "aiki" (harmonizing of "qi"). However, we also can and do use internals to deflect (as in uke nagashi) and to penetrate (hakkei... the Japanese transliteration of fajin). In fact, the name of the art, "Hontai Hakkei Ryu" means the school of true/genuine fajin. Hakkei/fajin can be applied very forcefully, with explosive and concussive effect, or it can be applied subtly to compress or maneuver an opponent into a place or position you want. AJJ tends to want to keep the opponent close in (rather than throwing away) so he can be subdued and controlled. These skills came largely from battlefield arts, with combatants in armor and potentially with weapons. So, subduing was a wiser strategy.

The videos I posted were from seminars and classes where he is demonstrating specific things. Here's yet another teaching moment, but of more striking applications. Listen to the explosive loss of breath on the demo partner (he is a good fighter and not faking), even with what looks like a light "tap"... These are concussive fajin.

Anyway, it's all good. You might notice frequent use of hengjin in many of these applications, too. ;)

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Re: Hengjin

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:33 am

I can see some of what you are talking about (it's hard to tell for sure without feeling it). It looks more like the long, steady type of Hengjin, which is also quite practical. I didn't really see a Fajin similar to our Zhenjin, but there are many types of Fajin. Perhaps instead of "join" I should have said "follow". I just mean that he's flowing from one thing to another in very close quarters. I noticed that some of the techniques are identical to some in my system or others that I've seen my Master use. You're right that we want to push people away or even have them run away, rather than controlling them. Totally different strategy.

My Master will sometimes do some demonstrations like this, but I'm not a huge fan. I feel like they are really easy to do on anyone complacent, especially beginners. They look really cool, but I feel bad for the person that is being subjected to it. I don't think that it is necessary to train or demonstrate. I would prefer something like free-sticky hands or Tuishou where both people have a chance to defend themselves and they are resisting, followed by actual sparring. If you have that I'd be keen to see it. Or some other semi-non-complacent drilling. Not both people taking turns to be the Uke either. That's just my personal preference, though. That being said, it is a lot of fun to slap people around. =P
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Re: Hengjin

Postby Interloper on Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:03 pm

Maarten,

Yeah, you're right -- videos can't convey what's really going on in the bodies, and it really does have to be felt, first-hand.

I do believe that there are different expressions of hengjin, but that they likely are generated by the same basic mechanisms. The difference comes in the "tweaking" of it to get different effects, such as a rapid pulsing created by condensing of the inguinal creases and dantian, a rapid expansion of mingmen. and rapid torquing from the ground. A slow, steady execution of those same mechanisms will create a flowing but powerful expression. Then, adding variations in sinking/condensing and rising/expanding create a "three-dimensional" effect of dipping or spiraling.

Am in agreement with you about the less-than-realistic conditions that demonstrations present. However, in the videos I posted, these are teaching moments, with the teacher explaining and showing principles and concepts, and the effects they create. I have been present with my sensei when he was challenged by an experienced fighter who requested a freestyle, open exchange, and that bout lasted about a minute or less, with the fighter on the ground and submitted. He was winded and exhausted, and my teacher, a much older man, and also ill at that time, was relaxed and not the least bit out of breath. lol. In our AJJ training, full-force attacks are required for all practices, once the students have learned the techniques being drilled, and sparring is required in order to learn how to apply the internal and combative principles under duress.

But teaching is teaching, and when trying to explain and walk students through a method, it has to be broken down and shown on an assistant. The ones in these videos, while playing a part in instruction, are actually throwing committed attacks. Their force is being absorbed or repelled and redirected through their joints, to their center of mass, controlling their structure and making further attacks mechanically impossible. It can be done with or without causing pain, but when both the mechanical control and the pain are applied, I can't even begin to describe how shocky and debilitating the kuzushi (control of center of mass, upon contact) is! You don't even want to try a second punch, even if your body wasn't locked up and could throw one. :D

Regarding being "smacked around," As shocky as things might look, they are being done with great care and at a fraction of the speed and force of a "real life" application. Even so, they can be painful... but they are done in such a way that leaves no damage. When we joint-lock we all suck in our breath from the pain, but as soon as it's released, we're fine, and in fact the endorphins have us going home feeling great. lol.
Also, as students progress in their internal training, they learn how to neutralize strikes and locks, to absorb and redirect them, even to reverse them. We are able to protect ourselves in training, while letting our partners (and teacher) get in their practice and instruction points. The system is very martial, developed by men who worked in tough professions, but it's not sadistic, and we're not masochists. It's just very cool stuff with a fascinating history.
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Re: Hengjin

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:11 pm

Absolutely. This sort of stuff, Fajin, Shuaibeishou etc. all need to be felt to be feared.

I think that you're right about the Hengjin. To summarise it using my own way, the power comes from torquing from the ground, as you say, combined with being able to use your entire body, especially the waist. Add Zhenjin and a bit of Shuaibeishou to it and you get a rapid, whip-like wave that is super dangerous.

I'm still not convinced that those demos are anything but stroking the teachers' ego, but that's pretty cool that you witnessed your Sensei dish out some carnage. That way following his commands are more than blind obedience. I am also fortunate to have witnessed an epic sparring session between my Master and the master with the best Gongfu I saw and felt in China (or anywhere else), Zhang Binghai. Both masters had their own unique Shenfa, strategies and techniques. It was incredible.

I know that when demonstrating things it's good for students to throw a fully-committed attack or you won't be able to easily show the intended effect, but too much training like that is just not my cup of tea. I think that, especially for striking, if both people understand the technique then the best thing is to immediately train it was at least some resistance. This is less true for wrestling, but I find long sequences of flowing movements to be unrealistic at best. A lot of other arts like the FMA can be guilty of this as well. Qinna techniques need to flow from one to the other, but need to also be very dynamic. When my Master uses his Qinna it is mostly reacting, rather than forcing. If I touch him here, he does that. If I try to get out of it this way, then he flows into that.. I think that Tuishou and Chishou are good ways to train these techniques with relative safety, but also some resistance.

Haha, I know that that type of training can be very painful. Luckily I'm tall and was never a good example for anyone to use.. :P
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Re: Hengjin

Postby Interloper on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:07 pm

Lol! Being tall is not always a good alibi for avoiding being a teacher's "crash-test dummy." Sometimes, a teacher likes to use a big guy to make the point that his method works, regardless of the opponent's greater size and mass. :)

My sensei has a number of nihon jujutsu (not aikijujutsu) students who are HUGE... One is nearly 7' tall and 420lbs! Another is 6'3" and 330lbs or so. There are Youtube clips of both of these men being tossed and pinned easily, using internal body qualities. I've actually trained with the latter man, and had him grab my wrists as hard as he could, and I was able to toss him easily, too, despite his mass and resistance. I am female, 5'5" and about 160lbs. Against a person with normal structure, this stuff really does have some crazy, wild effects.

About ego -- I know my sensei quite well, and understand his public presentation style (very different than how he teaches his direct students). He is not in any way stroking his ego. He really is just trying to present and explain what he is doing, breaking it down in a way that a non-student of this art can get a basic understanding of it. He comes from "the streets" (South Philadelphia, if anyone knows the area), and also spent many years working in executive protection and as bail enforcement agent. His own teacher distilled this art to serve his own professional needs in Japan. They didn't need egos to do what they did, they needed skills that worked. ;)
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