Sparring Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring Question

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:28 am

You can not do mud steps on an uneven surface. But the idea is to keep the foot as close to the ground as possible to hide your stepping and not letting the opponent trap your legs between transitions. But this is only one type of foot work. In Bagua, Natural stepping and Dragon Steps are equally important or maybe even more so.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:14 am

Bao wrote:You can not do mud steps on an uneven surface. But the idea is to keep the foot as close to the ground as possible to hide your stepping and not letting the opponent trap your legs between transitions.

In my mind that is begginers level teaching, or maybe Kung-Fu movie teaching. Sorry if that sounded a-holeish it was not meant as that, it’s what I honestly think of such “explainations”
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:45 am

Oh....

I think that it's a basic yet practical explanation. If it's wrong or too simplified, please explain your view and tell me what's missing.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:56 am

I believe that it's more about keeping your structure as you are stepping and adding power from the friction (since the power comes from the ground).
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:54 am

MaartenSFS wrote:I believe that it's more about keeping your structure as you are stepping and adding power from the friction (since the power comes from the ground).


Then the stepping method that the Cheng and Fu stylists practice is pretty useless.
Stones or mud, you can't slide with your toes or with your whole foot keeping contact with the ground on an uneven surface.
Not even Sun Lutang who was Cheng Tinghua's most famous student used mud stepping, so this is definitely not a standard of footwork speaking about Bagua in general.

I've never heard about jin from friction. It can be expressed while turning the center or keeping it straight, but from all methods I recall right now, it's almostt always expressed together with a clear weight transition or a clear change between stances. There are exceptions, especially on a higher level, but I cannot really find any place for friction from mud stepping in this equation. Through my many years studying Cheng Bagua I never found that this stepping method added anything to power generation. But this method makes it easier to control the body posture, spine and centerline when you do your circle walking. So IMO this method is mostly for solo practice.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:57 pm

If the surface is uneven, then there will be less friction, but that doesn't change the structure significantly. The friction does indeed add power and just because Sun Lutang did or didn't do something doesn't mean that something is or isn't effective. Everyone fights differently.

I can tell you that after I learned Xingyi footwork (Mocabu, which is pretty much identical to Tangnibu) together with Piquan my power improved drasticly and I haven't looked back since. Then again my power is explosive and different people may prefer different methods.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:04 am

MaartenSFS wrote:If the surface is uneven, then there will be less friction, but that doesn't change the structure significantly. The friction does indeed add power and just because Sun Lutang did or didn't do something doesn't mean that something is or isn't effective. Everyone fights differently.

I can tell you that after I learned Xingyi footwork (Mocabu, which is pretty much identical to Tangnibu) together with Piquan my power improved drasticly and I haven't looked back since. Then again my power is explosive and different people may prefer different methods.


It's not only Sun that doesn't use it. It's not standard in Yin style which is the most complete and complex of Bagua styles. What Cheng Tinghua did is not the standard footwork for Bagua generally speaking. Cheng style just happen to be the most popular style.

If you can move freely while moving and at the same time control posture and structure, your power generation will be much more "free". You will be less depended on a certain stance. Mud stepping can help you with this. This freedom of walking and not being dependent on a certain posture is what many CMA stylists lack regardless if you look at Tai Chi, Wing Chun and many other styles, both northern and southern styles. I don't believe that Bagua helped me with being able to punch someone harder in the face, but it certainly helped my body to find more freedom, which helped me improve my Tai Chi.

I love Tai Chi very, very much, but sometimes I feel that all rules and regulations of body movement and body use are more harmful than useful to the practitioner. Spontaneity and creativity are often forgotten.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:19 am

Bao wrote:Oh....

I think that it's a basic yet practical explanation. If it's wrong or too simplified, please explain your view and tell me what's missing.

I would agree here with Maarten abut the similarity of mocabu and tangnibu. I confess I do not have many years of BGZ practice in fact I just picked up a little from listening to and watching my XYQ teacher when teaching his BGZ students, previous I had studied YiQuan and TJQ a couple of years where two years of intense practice in Beijing where the highlight that made it all come clear.....The friction is not friction by dragging the soles of the feet agains the ground, it’s not dragging the feet agains the ground, there’s a whole lot of visualization going on in the exercise that i actually think you know about?....although teachings are out there to take part of but I won’t elaborate deeper in to it, i promised my teachers to keep certain teachings under my hat,,,,,now that sounds almost as out of an Kung-Fu flick :) But that how it is, there’s public teachings and then there’s the “other” teachings, on the surface they look fairly similar but it’s how to put the mind into it that differs.....But you know this already ?
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:40 am

Bao wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:If the surface is uneven, then there will be less friction, but that doesn't change the structure significantly. The friction does indeed add power and just because Sun Lutang did or didn't do something doesn't mean that something is or isn't effective. Everyone fights differently.

I can tell you that after I learned Xingyi footwork (Mocabu, which is pretty much identical to Tangnibu) together with Piquan my power improved drasticly and I haven't looked back since. Then again my power is explosive and different people may prefer different methods.


It's not only Sun that doesn't use it. It's not standard in Yin style which is the most complete and complex of Bagua styles. What Cheng Tinghua did is not the standard footwork for Bagua generally speaking. Cheng style just happen to be the most popular style.

If you can move freely while moving and at the same time control posture and structure, your power generation will be much more "free". You will be less depended on a certain stance. Mud stepping can help you with this. This freedom of walking and not being dependent on a certain posture is what many CMA stylists lack regardless if you look at Tai Chi, Wing Chun and many other styles, both northern and southern styles. I don't believe that Bagua helped me with being able to punch someone harder in the face, but it certainly helped my body to find more freedom, which helped me improve my Tai Chi.

I love Tai Chi very, very much, but sometimes I feel that all rules and regulations of body movement and body use are more harmful than useful to the practitioner. Spontaneity and creativity are often forgotten.

Yes this specific stepping practice gives the practitioner a unique freedom of footwork that drives from ones center it’s lively and stable at the same time....About keeping the feet’s close to the ground while moving is actually done in fighting to subtly closing the gap, it’s done in boxing and it’s done in Karate competition fighting, in Karate we did not have any specific footwork practice to learn this “subtle” footwork, one picked it up by sparring a lot, spontaneously and creatively.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:36 am

To me, footwork just means using the feet to position the body. It can mean taking one step or two, sliding or hopping, on heel or ball of the foot. In terms of sparring/fighting/usage, the appropriate footwork will be determined by the terrain and the position of the opponent. If one is in grappling range, for ex., footwork will differ than if one is striking from outside.

Foot work and positioning is critical. Otoh, ballet dancers have great footwork. Iirc, on the old Emptyflower there was a thread about how Fred Astaire would have been great at bagua. And, of course, at worst, great footwork will enable one to run away. :)
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:20 am

Trick wrote: But that how it is, there’s public teachings and then there’s the “other” teachings, on the surface they look fairly similar but it’s how to put the mind into it that differs.....But you know this already ?


Yes, for TCMA in general I know. Not every teacher want or believe that keeping things secrets is important or even something wanted. One teacher’s secret can be taught widely open by another teacher. But this is maybe one of the reasons why I never had the interest to dwell deeper into bagua. I never encountered any teacher here with real depth. Or at least had any interest to teach it on a deeper level. So even if I studied a few different styles, mostly Cheng and Sun style, for a period of approx 20 years in total I have always practiced it on a very rudimentary level. So I won’t claim any kind of skill in, or any real knowledge about, Bagua.

Trick wrote:About keeping the feet’s close to the ground while moving is actually done in fighting to subtly closing the gap, it’s done in boxing and it’s done in Karate competition fighting, in Karate we did not have any specific footwork practice to learn this “subtle” footwork, one picked it up by sparring a lot, spontaneously and creatively.


That is what I meant by “hiding” the footwork. As Cheng style is developed partially from Shuai Jiao, it seems reasonable that there’s a practical reason for the focus on this footwork as it can make it harder for your opponent to trap your leg when you close in.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:03 am

Bao wrote:That is what I meant by “hiding” the footwork. As Cheng style is developed partially from Shuai Jiao, it seems reasonable that there’s a practical reason for the focus on this footwork as it can make it harder for your opponent to trap your leg when you close in.

Ah, then I misunderstood your previous post. You mention Shuai Jiao, in tuishou the subtle footwork comes out quite naturally.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:05 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:That is what I meant by “hiding” the footwork. As Cheng style is developed partially from Shuai Jiao, it seems reasonable that there’s a practical reason for the focus on this footwork as it can make it harder for your opponent to trap your leg when you close in.

Ah, then I misunderstood your previous post. You mention Shuai Jiao, in tuishou the subtle footwork comes out quite naturally.

The crux will be to adapt it to all kind of ranges
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:46 am

Ok, I see. I never mentioned tuishou, only spoke about Bagua. Real use as it was intended was meant.

Trick wrote:The crux will be to adapt it to all kind of ranges


I don't disagree.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:44 pm

Steve James wrote: If one is in grappling range, for ex., footwork will differ than if one is striking from outside.

Agree! the footwork used in wrestling art is much more different from that that's used in striking art. Here is an examples.

- Step in left leg (north).
- Right leg makes a 1/2 circle.
- Step in left leg again (north east).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR33MPF ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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