Sparring Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring Question

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:52 pm

It's always a good idea to combine forward footwork and offense together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXeaWcO ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:11 pm

I do something similar called Shuangzhuangchui (双撞捶) together with a Xiao Chuai or Di Chuai (小踹). I do all of my kicks together with hand movements as well. Mr. Wang, I love the content of your videos, but they are too short! If you showed two seconds before the technique and two seconds after and showed them three times solo and three times hitting the target they would be much better. I've always liked your stuff. :)
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby johnwang on Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:33 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:but they are too short!

I find short clip has advantage over the long clip. People can use it to set up any finish move that they may want to. There may be a lot of effective finish strategies. But the number of effective entering strategies are limited.

If you can publish a book with 50 effective entering strategies, it will have more value than to publish a book with 200 effective finish strategies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQvvOBJ ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby dspyrido on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:27 pm

Range means different tactics: Outside->Striking->In fighting->Ground

Most karate guys will train at Outside->Striking
Most TC guys are Infighting (assuming the 0.00001% that do spar).

If you have no sparring skills then you will be hit as you are under equipped to get into range without being hit. Once in range you will still get hit because the skills you have learnt have not been applied on a live opponent.

Don't fret as it is an opportunity to learn something new.

Want to get into range?

JW showed a bridging move. There's many variations & other things to understand like:

- reading the opponent to set up for evasion
- level change/positioning
- evading & counter attacking
- feinting/distraction
- footwork/distancing have been mentioned but it's all in about knowing how to apply them to control the distance
- rhythm, tempo, timing
- and at worse case .... shells, guards, blocking, crashing, checking (even if it’s not something you do does not mean they won't)

Each of the above can be broken down into many techniques/examples. Watch Lawrence Kenshin’s breakdowns.






Maybe this is not TC. Maybe it is. Or not karate. Or is. Regardless when sparring (at range) these things do come up & need to be considered.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby marvin8 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:22 pm

seven wrote:I have been practicing taijiquan for about ten years now. My experience of two-person work has been lots of push hands and some striking drills. I recently got the opportunity to do some sparring with gloves with a karate teacher who is really interested in taiji. It's a great opportunity for me to dip my toe into sparring, but I am interested in suggestions from experienced IMA people about how to approach sparring with a karate practitioner. Things to try, things to not do, ways to make the sparring have a connection to what I practice. Thank you.

Try to apply taijiquan forms, push hands and drills concepts, principles and strategies to your sparring.

Bhassler wrote:What's your goal? Sport fighting? Self defense? Becoming a bouncer? Joining a biker gang? Making money as an internet guru?

One never knows where or who will attack them, outside of the workplace. A martial art (e.g., taiji) should develop fighting skills that can defend against a variety of attackers. RBSD (reality based self defense) techniques can be added to tweak these skills, but should not be relied on by themselves.

maxbjj on Aug 2, 2018 wrote:Fred Mastro is a self defense master and the creator of “Mastro Defense system”. We can see him in all flashy videos easily fighting and subduing multiple opponents, bigger opponents, tough opponents with very interesting and flashy moves. The only thing we can’t see are resisting opponents.

Most of the self defense systems and trainings lack real sparring and that’s why people who trains real fighting martial arts will say that everything that Mastro shows is unrealistic and can’t be done in any real fighting situation.

In the video you can see Fred Mastro in a real MMA fight and in some demonstrations. In the MMA fight he looks like a rank amateur in a brawl in the demonstration he looks like a martial art expert... read more at https://maxbjj.blogspot.com/2018/08/difesa-personale-vs-mma-self-defense-vs.html:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mqrjF_VgNs

Bhassler wrote:"Sparring" is pretty generic, and doesn't carry a lot of meaning by itself. Mostly folks just get good at slap boxing, unless they have a more specific focus.

I agree. Slap boxing, force on force and relying on power develops bad habits.

MaartenSFS wrote:I believe that footwork is very important, but it's also higher-level stuff. I'd come back to it after getting smacked around for a while.

One shouldn't be sparring without basic footwork. Drill footwork first.

Excerpt from "Tai Ji Quan," http://www.shenwu.com/taichi.htm:
Tim Cartmell wrote:The primary combat strategy of Tai Ji Quan can be summed up in the phrase "Entice (the opponent) to advance, (cause the opponent to) fall into emptiness, unite (with the opponent) then throw (the opponent) out" [Yin jin, luo kong, he ji chu]. Enticing the opponent to advance (advance refers to the opponent's aggressive forward momentum) can be as simple as standing in front, presenting an open target or launching a preemptive attack designed to draw a reaction. Enticing the opponent into aggressive forward momentum has several advantages. Firstly, just like the arrow released from the bow, a committed attack cannot change direction until its momentum is spent. Such an attack affords the Tai Ji Quan fighter time and opportunity to gain the superior position for effective counter attack. Secondly, a powerful, committed attack almost invariably requires whole body motion. Once the opponent's whole body is in motion (and his center of balance is in flux) it becomes possible to unbalance him with a relatively small force (correctly applied). For example, it requires a relatively large force to foot-sweep an upright and stationary opponent to the ground. However once the opponent moves his center of mass forward as he takes a step, a sweep to the stepping foot just before it touches the ground will send the opponent crashing to the ground with a very slight effort. This type of technique is referred to as "Moving a thousand pounds with a force of four ounces." Finally, enticing an opponent into aggressive forward motion locks his mentality into the attack mode. With committed focus on attacking, the opponent will be slow in changing to the defensive mind set as the Tai Ji Quan fighter counterattacks. The opponent's reaction time is delayed, further increasing the counterattacks odds of success; this allows the Tai Ji Quan fighter to "leave after yet arrive first."

"Falling into emptiness"is analogous to the principle of never using force against force. The Tai Ji Quan Classics state "Some have practiced tens of years but are still defeated by others: this is because they have not recognized their illness of double

What is the method that makes it possible to entice the opponent to enter, cause him to fall into emptiness, unite with him and then throw him out? For that matter, what separates Tai Ji Quan (or the internal/soft style) techniques from all other types of techniques? The answer lies in one underlying skill; namely, the ability to "stick adhere, continue and follow" [Zhan, nien, lian, sui]. Stick and Adhere refer to connecting with the opponent in a soft and nonconfrontational manner and maintaining this connection as you both move (blocking an opponent's incoming force inevitably results in the opponent being knocked away. This makes it impossible to join with the opponent and one is doomed to remaining double weighted). Continue and Follow refer to "giving up oneself and following the other" by continuously following the opponent's movement and changes in order to maintain your connection. In this Situation, you may constantly monitor the opponent's actions and intent while seeking the time and opportunity to join with and lead his center, thereby bringing him under your control.

One may ask, "what exactly are we sticking to and following?" Do we stick to the opponent's arms? His torso? The answer is we stick to the opponent's center of gravity (his pelvic region). In Tai Ji Quan technique this is rarely achieved by direct contact (a useful example to help understand the concept of sticking to and controlling an opponent's center is the wrestler, who routinely sticks to his opponent's center directly, as when applying the popular bear hug). Most often, the Tai Ji Quan fighter will seek to stick to and control the opponent's center through contact with his arms and/or upper torso, using these regions as handles to the opponent's center. In order to maintain control of the opponent’s center, the point of contact with the opponent will often change in the course of an exchange. The ability to stick, follow and control an opponent's center in the midst of motion is cultivated in the various push hands drills found in all styles of Tai Ji Quan. . . .
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:41 pm

I totally disagree that one must learn basic footwork before sparring. In all of the ICMA the techniques are all taught in line drills with footwork (yes, even in proper TJQ and BGZ, though the latter may have circular footwork AS WELL), so by the end of the first class the students should already have at least several techniques to try out whilst avoiding getting hit themselves. They will probably fail but the reality check is critical and will either set them on the path to becoming a martial artist or running to a safer hobby.

Regardless, the OP stated that he is not a beginner, so I say that my advice stands and that if he only learned forms he should either try to dissect them into drills or find another teacher.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:16 am

I was into Karate in my younger days, but began exploring into Taijiquan and Xingyiquan at 22 years of age, that was when I first visited China on my way to Japan to further study Karate. At 30 years of age I totally switch to CIMA’s and since then hardly done any free sparring at all(but I’m fine with that). Those few times I did/(do) free sparring I tend to fall back to my “Karate” sparring style. I know a couple of boxers that I sparred with(long time ago), first I tried to adopt a boxing way of sparring which got me to eat glove, I though wtf and just went back to my “Karate mood” and it all went smooth even that it was no kicks sparring. But what I noticed was that I often tended to go in closer as to set up for throws or try to find a point to unbalance the opponent upon close touch, I guess that was something that came from my TJQ training, it was not something I consciously tried to do, it just came naturally......I think it’s a good opportunity for you to have your Karate friend if you can workout regularly you will pick up a good sense of timing and distance, and it won’t hurt you Taiji training.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:20 pm

The footwork is universal. There is no such thing as Taiji footwork, long fist footwork, ... You can always use your common sense to figure out your own foot work. IMO, the following 8 footwork should cover whatever that you may need in sparring.

1. 1/2 step - advance forward leg, back leg follow.
2. 1 step - advance back leg to touch behind leading leg, you then advance leading leg.
3. 1 and 1/2 step - advance forward leg first, advance back leg to touch behind leading leg, you then advance leading leg.
4. forward jump - advance forward leg, jump from back leg, land with back leg, advance leading leg behind.
5. backward jump - move back back leg, jump with both legs. land with both legs.
6. side step - move back leg side way, move front leg side way.
7. side step enter - move back leg side way, advance front leg.
8. wheeling step - advance back leg, spin the leading leg. Some time you spin the back leg without moving the front leg.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:22 pm

How about 之字步? I use it all the time.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:24 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:How about 之字步? I use it all the time.

Please describe it.

MaartenSFS wrote:I totally disagree that one must learn basic footwork before sparring.

Some white eyebrow instructor spends 6 months to train his students how to do "front leg step in, back leg follow".

I teach "move back leg side way to line up with opponent's both legs" on day one. IMO, to move away from your opponent's back hand so you only have to deal with his leading hand can make the fight much simple.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby windwalker on Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:42 pm

Foot work determines how a style works and used, depending on style it can be quite distinctive.
I would not call it basic nor instinctive nor something that most would figure out on their own.

Mike Staples: Coming from a karate background, my first impression was “how could this possibly work?” It looks open, ineffective, and easily blocked. It wasn’t until I saw it in action, and later saw that it was the unusual footwork patterns of this “circular” style, that it made sense.


Image ,Image

The footwork began with simply learning to shift from side to side, then progressed through a series of patterns, mapped out by paintings on the floor. Part of the objective was to move through these patterns without breaking one’s “horse” position.

http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:04 pm

windwalker wrote:Foot work determines how a style works and used, depending on style it can be quite distinctive.

You may give too much credit to footwork. Footwork is just how you may move your legs. A soccer player may have better footwork than most of the MA guys have.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:32 am

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:Foot work determines how a style works and used, depending on style it can be quite distinctive.

You may give too much credit to footwork. Footwork is just how you may move your legs. A soccer player may have better footwork than most of the MA guys have.



Totally agree for soccer they may have. For fighting they may not.

There's a whole strategy to footwork, circular hands and linear footwork,linear hands and circular footwork or circular footwork and circular hands, lnear foot work with linear hands.

Like many things it's a preference, whatever works best for oneself.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:56 am

Football(soccer)players, they fall all the time it seem.....It feels when talking about footwork here it mean to just shuffle around the feet/legs in different patterns and hope for the best....I think about the IMA footwork where the mind comes more into play, such as mud-walking, friction-step for example, but also the six harmonies with foot-hand elbow-knee, and so on, and other similar visualizations that makes the step nimble but stable, not just moving in fixed visual patterns.
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Re: Sparring Question

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:00 am

To clarify, the mudwalking frictionstep and so on is for solo practice, if done correct the free moving footwork that should come out from it would be nimble and stable
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