Hand position when just inside range

[Palmer]

Below is a clip of an old UFC fight between Royce Gracie and Keith Hackney. I liked Keith Hackneys stand up and remmember watching this live. He waves his hands quite a bit, I assume to cause distraction and give Royce something extra to worry about. I do not see this much in todays UFC fights. It seems like most fighters have more of a fixed posture and may change it up but not move it like Keith does in the vid. When learning Tai Chi Chuan in the past my teacher emphasized this concept so I have played with it using cloud hands, back walking monkey and also what we called a rake hand which is kind of like a horizontal slap.

I am interested in other people's thoughts on this. Do you use this approach much in your training? If so what kind of movements.

thanks,

Palmer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei2BfgBrj0Y

[mixjourneyman]

I really liked that clip. Both fighters did a really good job of what they were good at.
In more recent UFC's though it seems that people have learned a valuable lesson of boxing, which is to keep your hands up to protect your face.
I think in the long run it has become more and more important as you get better rounded fighters who have both boxing and takedown skills.

[Wanderingdragon]

Fun clip , although I get bored when they go down , it gets very technical down there . At about 1:19 when Hackney throws that huge hook , seems like with proper footwork , instead of leaving his weight hanging in the air behind him with the rear leg, he could have followed with a great Beng if he landed it Chin could have done some more damage, this is the idea of having your body go where the strike goes this is in the footwork. Hsing I hand and foot go together . His hands were moving, but they weren't sure why, this is waisted energy, always give your soldiers specific duties, i.e. stop the lead hand when entering, guard against low kick in transition, stop the head to nullify the shoot.

[middleway]

I think some UFC fighters still use this concept but to a less obvious / more subtle degree.

The way Chuck Liddel holds his guard for instance is kind of disconnected from his posture or movement, this is one of the things that makes his striking unpredictable.

But then of course the man that did knock him out with an awesome strike was Rashad Evans, who also waves his arms around like a crazy man if i remember correctly.

From a SD perspective its good to 'talk with your hands', As in, if you are discussing something with a potentially violent individual then have your hands between you and them gesturing. Then they are your loaded guns ... he comes within that space .. he is knocked out. Very useful for Doormen.

Cheers
Chris

[Palmer]

is one of the things that makes his striking unpredictable.


From a SD perspective its good to 'talk with your hands', As in, if you are discussing something with a potentially violent individual then have your hands between you and them gesturing. Then they are your loaded guns ... he comes within that space .. he is knocked out. Very useful for Doormen.

One of my teachers referred to it as creating a smoke screen. I think it helps with keeping the opponents mind busy as well as could make you less predictable or not reveal your intentions.

My preference in a 'match' fight environment is not to exchange punches at a point of just being in range (prefer to be totally in or out of range.) But reality doesn't always provide you with what you want so I think these approaches can still be important.

I am not sure if the talking hands concept is exactly the same as what is trying to be achieved in this scenario but I think the benefit from both would probably cross over to a degree when discussing a match fight verses a self defence situation.


Does anyone else use this approach with IMA techniques?

[nianfong]

genki sudo would do this a lot if I remember right. he did crazy shit like windmill arms a la popeye.

[Dmitri]

I do not see this much in todays UFC fights.

That's probably because everyone trains boxing and/or Muay Thai for their stand-up work.
Also you might notice how both were keeping their hands WAY down by today's "MMA standards"...

Today's UFC is a well-oiled sport-fighting money machine.
Early UFCs were nothing like this.

[Palmer]

I do not see this much in todays UFC fights.

That's probably because everyone trains boxing and/or Muay Thai for their stand-up work.
Also you might notice how both were keeping their hands WAY down by today's "MMA standards"...

Today's UFC is a well-oiled sport-fighting money machine.
Early UFCs were nothing like this.

As I said I watched that UFC fight live and I still watch and enjoy UFC today. I am aware of the evolution of MMA and am not confused as to why people tend to use certain approaches in UFC. But at the same time flying knees, super man punches, spinning backfists, foot stomps etc were not always typically used and new and diffeent approaches make there way into the sport over time.

All I am really interested in is if anyone has applied similar practices in their training. Doesn't seem so from the response so far. That's okay I was just curious.

Palmer

[Bodywork]

MAybe it's safer and smarter to consider there is no right or wrong.
Rather it's about how you work. More important might be DO....you work to make your stuff work? Have and do you test it out to see if it does work?
1. Conventional punchers succeed
2. Un-conventional punchers succeed
3. External fighters succeed
4. Internal fighters succeed

Do …you…succeed?

[Palmer]

MAybe it's safer and smarter to consider there is no right or wrong.

I absolutely agree and never suggested otherwise

Rather it's about how you work. More important might be DO....you work to make your stuff work? Have and do you test it out to see if it does work?
1. Conventional punchers succeed
2. Un-conventional punchers succeed
3. External fighters succeed
4. Internal fighters succeed

Do …you…succeed?

I am not suggesting that others do not succeed or that this is the only approach. Your bringing th style vs style into this not me.

....this is a discussion forum....I thought it was okay to ask people if they use a particular approach, technique, training method and discuss it. Does asking about something mean you are leading people to believe that there is only one method for success?

What's the purpose of having a discussion forum if your going to dissuade someone from asking a question?

[Bodywork]

No No..How you got style Vs style out of my post is beyond me.
That's not what I meant at all. I'm not advocating -A- style or style VS style. The answer to the question is in fact NOT style specific. There are good fighters and lame fighters everywhere. I was suggesting that it is more personal than a style. It is what you (not you personally-just a general you) can make of your art. I think too many people focus on what this or that guy can do. What a teacher does means little or nothing as to what you are going to be able to pull off. Too much is dependant on his ability to teach and your ablity to learn. I think I might debate a point that most people in the arts suck...and always have. Which is why the greats stood out in the first place and were considered great.
In the modern era. Randy or Chuck make no promise of producing another Randy or Chuck. Fights are full of the conventional and the unconventional. In the end it all comes down to us as individuals....that's all.

[Dean]

If there outside of range, why react. When they go to the ground that's another story. It seem like it turn into wrestling not Internal Boxing.

[Bodywork]

If there outside of range, why react. When they go to the ground that's another story. It seem like it turn into wrestling not Internal Boxing.

Internal is internal. Your don't take it off like coat. Your connections and body skills work in stand up and work VERY well on the ground.
Trying to make our internal connections look like art _____________ is the first mistake many people make.
If someone truly has internal power then they will do well on the ground. Most grapplers will tell you you feel freakishly strong and powerful and they can't get you, as most of the set ups they try to do- fail. Secondly, hitting (for them) from very short ranges; to head and ribs and stomach really don't accomplish much. Most of them feel like rabbit punches. we should be able to knock people out and break ribs from close in even on our backs. Basically I would suggest to you that internal training has little to nothing to do with an arts waza. That's just a method people use to express it in. Change the waza and learn something else and your internal training works there just as well. True internal power should make you feel like a freaking handful to anyone and should shut up any naysers in short order. This should be particularly apparent with those who try to feint, enter-in and throw you I might suggest to those that cannot end all doubt with grapplers on contact ...that more homework is in order. The difference should be felt immediately.
The rest is just learning a set of good fighting skills.

[Dean]

True internal power should make you feel like a freaking handful to anyone and should shut up any naysers in short order. This should be particularly apparent with those who try to feint, enter-in and throw you I might suggest to those that cannot end all doubt with grapplers on contact ...that more homework is in order. The difference should be felt immediately.
The rest is just learning a set of good fighting skills.

I agree that true internal power can give you an advantage. More homework is always in order.

[everything]

Preaching to the choir here. Wonderful sermon. I got a shitload of homework to do.