Worthwhile books?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Worthwhile books?

Postby charles on Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:13 am

In another thread, I stated that I have lots of books on the subject of Taijiquan. I stated few of them are worth the paper on which they are written.

The first, and most obvious question regarding that statement is by what criteria is that judgement made? Obviously, it depends upon what is one's purpose in reading a book on the subject of Taijiquan.

One possible purpose to read such a book is to acquire academic knowledge regarding the art. That knowledge can include its history, its origins, its goals, who were the notable figures in its history, influences that might have shaped its development, its general strategy as a martial art, its philosophical underpinnings, and so on. Those are academic aspects of the art. Many books have been written on those subjects, many quite successfully: they impart academic information regarding the topic.

Another possible purpose to read such a book is to develop actual skills in the art - in contrast to knowledge about the art. Many "how-to" books have been written. In my opinion and experience, it isn't possible to effectively learn the practical skills of the art by reading about them. As I've previously stated elsewhere, this is due to the art being experiential and the failing of words to adequately and unambiguously capture or describe that experience. There is far too much room for incorrect interpretation for most readers to obtain a "correct" physical interpretation and implementation of what is described in words. For THAT purpose, in my opinion, books have very little effectiveness and are largely a waste of time, effort and money.

In my opinion and experience, those who don't already have a good grasp of what they are reading regarding the physical interpretation and implementation have their heads filled with buzzwords the meanings of which they do not understand, but can then repeat them as if "in the know". Some teachers are very secretive about what they teach in order to prevent non-students from "stealing" their buzzwords, the result of which is "everyone" now talks about said buzzword, but few know what it means or how to physically manifest it.

In short, it depends upon where one is in one's progression what books might be of value. Even then, their primary value is to remind one of points that one learned during hands-on teaching with a skilled teacher, or, perhaps, to phrase the same thing one learned during that hands-on teaching in a different, possibly, more accessible way. What one reads is, in my experience, familiar guideposts along the way. If one hasn't already encountered those guideposts in hands-on teaching, the guideposts are either unrecognizable or unintelligible.

In earlier days of my practice, I did a fair bit of how-to style writing about Taijiquan. I realized that is was largely a wast of both my time and those who read it. While it helped me organize my thoughts, it did very little to help those who didn't already know learn to do what I wrote about: it was largely a fool's errand for both author and reader.

Largely unimpeachable sources of written information are the "classics" of Taijiquan. Unfortunately, again, until you already know and can do what they describe, they are largely unintelligible and open to many, many interpretations, most of which lead students in the wrong direction. For example, an often stated admonition in the classics is to "sink qi". As you are aware, what "qi" is, and how to "sink" it, have many interpretations and physical implementations. There are no shortages of more modern written descriptions on what qi is and how to sink it. There are, however, relative shortages of skilled practitioners.

One of the books that is important to me is the English translation of Hong Junsheng's book. However, it, too, would be scrap paper without hands-on training to understand what he was attempting to describe.

Another book, one that I read a long time ago, but I recall finding useful in a guidepost-sort-of-way, is Taijiquan Through the Western Gate, by Rick Barrett. In his book, he writes the following:

An old Chinese story goes something like this: A fish was hanging out by a pier when he heard some men talking about water. This intrigued the fish. He had never heard of this remarkable substance. He returned to his kin and announced he was off on a quest to find this mysterious "water". He was gone a long time and hand many adventures. When he returned to his family, they asked if he had found this mysterious thing. He said, "Yes. But you're not going to believe this..."


Another book, on the basic standing of Yi Quan, is The Way of Energy by Lam Kai Chuen. It provides guidance on the physical standing postures and attempts to provide some description of the sensations one encounters during the practice.


I have no doubt that others have found books that they have found "worthwhile" and encourage them to post those and why they though they were worthwhile. (It would be a much longer list of not-worthwhile books, but that would not be a particularly productive list, other than what one might want to avoid.)
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby northern_mantis on Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:59 am

To suggest it is beyond anybody to describe and instruct martial arts training through writing and images and that it is beyond anybody to understand and apply it is a bizarre assumption. Consider all the subject matter that is far more complicated and recorded and understood in writing. If I couldn't achieve either of these goals I would be looking to supplement my education somehow because something has gone very wrong somewhere.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:08 pm

charles wrote:In another thread, I stated that I have lots of books on the subject of Taijiquan. I stated few of them are worth the paper on which they are written.

The first, and most obvious question regarding that statement is by what criteria is that judgement made? Obviously, it depends upon what is one's purpose in reading a book on the subject of Taijiquan.

One possible purpose to read such a book is to acquire academic knowledge regarding the art. That knowledge can include its history, its origins, its goals, who were the notable figures in its history, influences that might have shaped its development, its general strategy as a martial art, its philosophical underpinnings, and so on. Those are academic aspects of the art. Many books have been written on those subjects, many quite successfully: they impart academic information regarding the topic.

Another possible purpose to read such a book is to develop actual skills in the art - in contrast to knowledge about the art. Many "how-to" books have been written. In my opinion and experience, it isn't possible to effectively learn the practical skills of the art by reading about them. As I've previously stated elsewhere, this is due to the art being experiential and the failing of words to adequately and unambiguously capture or describe that experience. There is far too much room for incorrect interpretation for most readers to obtain a "correct" physical interpretation and implementation of what is described in words. For THAT purpose, in my opinion, books have very little effectiveness and are largely a waste of time, effort and money.

In my opinion and experience, those who don't already have a good grasp of what they are reading regarding the physical interpretation and implementation have their heads filled with buzzwords the meanings of which they do not understand, but can then repeat them as if "in the know". Some teachers are very secretive about what they teach in order to prevent non-students from "stealing" their buzzwords, the result of which is "everyone" now talks about said buzzword, but few know what it means or how to physically manifest it.

In short, it depends upon where one is in one's progression what books might be of value. Even then, their primary value is to remind one of points that one learned during hands-on teaching with a skilled teacher, or, perhaps, to phrase the same thing one learned during that hands-on teaching in a different, possibly, more accessible way. What one reads is, in my experience, familiar guideposts along the way. If one hasn't already encountered those guideposts in hands-on teaching, the guideposts are either unrecognizable or unintelligible.

In earlier days of my practice, I did a fair bit of how-to style writing about Taijiquan. I realized that is was largely a wast of both my time and those who read it. While it helped me organize my thoughts, it did very little to help those who didn't already know learn to do what I wrote about: it was largely a fool's errand for both author and reader.

Largely unimpeachable sources of written information are the "classics" of Taijiquan. Unfortunately, again, until you already know and can do what they describe, they are largely unintelligible and open to many, many interpretations, most of which lead students in the wrong direction. For example, an often stated admonition in the classics is to "sink qi". As you are aware, what "qi" is, and how to "sink" it, have many interpretations and physical implementations. There are no shortages of more modern written descriptions on what qi is and how to sink it. There are, however, relative shortages of skilled practitioners.

One of the books that is important to me is the English translation of Hong Junsheng's book. However, it, too, would be scrap paper without hands-on training to understand what he was attempting to describe.

Another book, one that I read a long time ago, but I recall finding useful in a guidepost-sort-of-way, is Taijiquan Through the Western Gate, by Rick Barrett. In his book, he writes the following:

An old Chinese story goes something like this: A fish was hanging out by a pier when he heard some men talking about water. This intrigued the fish. He had never heard of this remarkable substance. He returned to his kin and announced he was off on a quest to find this mysterious "water". He was gone a long time and hand many adventures. When he returned to his family, they asked if he had found this mysterious thing. He said, "Yes. But you're not going to believe this..."


Another book, on the basic standing of Yi Quan, is The Way of Energy by Lam Kai Chuen. It provides guidance on the physical standing postures and attempts to provide some description of the sensations one encounters during the practice.


I have no doubt that others have found books that they have found "worthwhile" and encourage them to post those and why they though they were worthwhile. (It would be a much longer list of not-worthwhile books, but that would not be a particularly productive list, other than what one might want to avoid.)


Hi Charles,

I may have missed it, but, I feel that you left out one of the best reasons for reading books on taijiquan. I agree that the technicals should be left to actual training with a qualified teacher and that "academics" (histories, genealogies, etc) can be gleaned from pages.

Personally, the most useful role that taijiquan books (or MA books more generally) played for me was that of the muse. Often times, especially when in a glut or stuck on a plateau, I would read or reread a work and be inspired to throw myself into training. These books were often full of anecdotes, many of which were questionable, that managed to excite me even when dubious.

So, I would add the conceptual category of inspirational books as a worthwhile subset of the literature. YMMV.
Last edited by Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:58 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Personally, the most useful role that taijiquan books (or MA books more generally) played for me was that of the muse. Often times, especially when in a glut or stuck on a plateau, I would read or reread a work and be inspired to throw myself into training. These books were often full of anecdotes, many of which were questionable, that managed to excite me even when dubious.


Agreed!

I also like classical texts very much. But there are mostly only some passages or chapters that are interesting.

My favorite author, but sadly only of shorter texts, is Li Yaxuan. Deep and very practical without compromising the principles.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby GrahamB on Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:20 pm

I really like books about tao and zen.

DDJ, Beck, chuangtzu, Watts, Suzuki

Apparently you can’t learn zen from a book either ;D
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:23 pm

Indeed, if you are reading D.T. Suzuki and Watts, you are not likely to learn much about Zen Buddhism.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby everything on Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:44 pm

the various Bruce Lee books from his early writings to his later writings. bit of philosophy and foundational thoughts underpinning modern mma. pros and cons of styles and approaches. why a single "classical" style is inadequate. fundamental concepts useful in general (such as in sports) such as broken rhythm. principles in his own personal mma such as "progressive indirect attack".

the Fedor book.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby middleway on Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:52 pm

if you are reading D.T. Suzuki and Watts, you are not likely to learn much about Zen Buddhism.


Agreed. One of my favourite books on Zen is - the three pillars of Zen by Roshi Philip kapleau.

Personally I have become a huge fan of audio books because I have a very busy life and they allow me to absorb things while performing other tasks, walking the dogs, driving, etc

Unfortunatley about 75% of the books I am really interested in are not available in that format. Haha.

I have almost no interest in books on the martial arts though tbh.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby middleway on Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:00 pm

if you are reading D.T. Suzuki and Watts, you are not likely to learn much about Zen Buddhism.


Agreed. One of my favourite books on Zen is - the three pillars of Zen by Roshi Philip kapleau.

Personally I have become a huge fan of audio books because I have a very busy life and they allow me to absorb things while performing other tasks, walking the dogs, driving, etc

Unfortunatley about 75% of the books I am really interested in are not available in that format. Haha.

I have almost no interest in books on the martial arts though tbh. I think the last one I bought wad Ellis Amders hidden in plain site, but it was largely very basic and i only really enjoyed some of the historical stuff.

Like Graham .... i hate thst we agree for the second time in our lives ;D Im far more interested in books on zen, buddhism, taoism, esoteric christianity and Hinduism. By far the book that has captivated me most in the last couple of years is The Bhagavad Gita.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby GrahamB on Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:05 pm

I'd be interested in knowing what your and Ian's problem is with Alan Watts? Not "orthodox" or "traditional" but I thought he had some great ideas.

His shit was probably fake. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qb5sx65kRE

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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:19 am

I enjoyed Jack Dempsey's work. A lot of good stuff to learn from him.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby middleway on Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:56 am

I'd be interested in knowing what your and Ian's problem is with Alan Watts? Not "orthodox" or "traditional" but I thought he had some great ideas.


Oh i dont have any problem with him and absolutely he had some great ideas, but Ian said his work is not particularly "Zen Buddhism", which i agree with. I actually liked the books i have read, especially the historical perspectives. However, i am not sure he represents Zen Buddhism itself, instead adapting it somewhat to the western pallet and mind. I find his work to be somewhat 'intellectual' in nature and it lacks some practicalities of what you should or should not be practicing.

This is why i loved the Three Pillars of Zen, which includes discussions between western students and the Roshi on the real struggles they have with the practices.

With all that said i am not an expert and could very well not be seeing things clearly with regards to this subject.

thanks.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:08 am

I've not read 3 pillars, but the content page and the cover put me off. Anything with chapters about 'enlightenment experiences' kind of turns me off.

Some people like marmite, some don't, I guess.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby middleway on Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:38 am

Well, for what its worth, it absolutely isn't an esoteric namby pamby book. I found it pretty down to earth and direct in its approach to the subject, but you cant really seperate traditional Buddhism from the subject of enlightenment.
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Re: Worthwhile books?

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:09 am

Yeah, I just flicked through it - it's not esoteric or namby-pamby.

The questions/answers on enlightenment I saw don't sit right with me though - it sounds a lot like it's saying enlightenment is the goal of practice. To me turning it into a "goal" to be attained is exactly the problem that Zen is seeking to help us recognise.
(page 151 for example).

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Interesting discussion :)
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