So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

[Trick]

If we take the stories of Dong at face value, that he learned circle walking from Daoists who did qigong only (and why would this story even be unusual), is there actually anything interesting or practical there? Literally, part of baguazhang comes from qigong work. Well we can just speculate that these guys got old and interested in "health" so whatever. Interesting but irrelevant except that taijiquan and qigong have proven health benefits, and that's good, but not really relevant. But that isn't what they said. Yes sure, Sun did mention health, but he also said once his dantian was full (of energy) it was easy to do throws. Maybe this is a BIG LIE? Well it's not that hard to look into. It isn't very hard to learn a little MA. It isn't very hard to learn a little qigong. If the latter only helps with health, that helps your "self protection" in both a direct and indirect way, so why not. The bare minimum is already useful. If it helps merge into your actual MA, great. If not, great. Maybe you get some glimpse into what they're actually talking about. If it could help throws, we'd all like that. Of course, did Fedor or Tyson need this? No. But at middle age, can we really become Fedor? Can Fedor even become a better Fedor? No, of course not! OTOH, is this internal thing only "old person martial arts"? Maybe... it definitely seems like better "old person martial arts" than any other old person martial arts, at the very least. Hahaha

As for example Dalto ryu Aikijutsu that have been talked about on the forum before is supposed to have(for inner students only?) “unusual”exercises for developing (unusual)strengt, exercises that have no martial application per se, but the strengt gained can of course be applied in martial practice and thus combat...While in the CIMA’s some teachers of the past did a fuse together of such conditioning exercises with techniques of defence and attack, maybe to make it easier to apply it in eventual combat?........About Tyson while in Japan for his Buster Douglas fight, he just days before made a visit to Gozo Shioda’s school(Aikido), he supposedly had gotten curious about that MA?....Anyway whatever he got out from that visit it didn’t help him in his fight.

[Trick]

This take on the concept of Qi might tie into the concept of the Holy spirit of Christianity perhaps also to Islam and other religions. So the Qi could maybe be a kind of radiation/energy from the sun that if our consciousness is rightly attuned we will be able to harness, store(sink?), grow and circulate it to a higher degree

I don't think so. Qi is a meta-physical concept, philosophical concept. I don't believe that religion should be mixed into the pot. One good philosopher to read to understand how Qi is viewed in Chinese tradition is Zhang Zai. He had a great impact on how Qi has been viewed in China for the last thousand years.
.

Yes as for religions and here for example Christianity that maybe in the past quickly devolved into an hierarchy belief/control system might have nothing to do with its original meaning and practice, but then it may still contain that essence for those with eyes to see it? Hidden in plain sight

[Doc Stier]

Agreed. Most of the alleged, so-called 'secrets' are usually hidden in plain view to those who know what to look for.

[wiesiek]

would like to note, `cause nobody did it yet,:
considering >sinking the qi< - it is quite good phrase for describing what should be done by not doin`, actually...

from oxford dictionary:
SYNONYMS

become submerged, be engulfed, go down, drop, fall, descend

disappear, vanish
ANTONYMS

rise, float

[windwalker]

Agreed. Most of the alleged, so-called 'secrets' are usually hidden in plain view to those who know what to look for.

While I very much agree with this.

It would seem that some tend to stick with a language that is not their own trying to translate it into something they can understand in
order to derive a meaning. Qi is cultural to the culture it originates from.

For them there is no need to know the meaning to something they do and understand as a natural course.
In my own work working with native speakers long time taiji practitioners after awhile they tend to agree
that using physics and physic theory makes what was once mysterious even for them, more understandable
doable and repeatable.

[windwalker]

Agreed. Most of the alleged, so-called 'secrets' are usually hidden in plain view to those who know what to look for.

While I totally agree with you

qi is word used by those from a the culture it originates from. The only confusion seems to be by those outside the culture trying to redefine it.

In working with native speakers, while they know and understand qi culturally it may not be something they can explain because for them there is little need to,
everyone knows it. I use physics in my work which those I work with have come to see as a better more reliable of explaining what may or not be happening the why, what, and why..

some examples of past masters using this approach.

The old masters taught that each Pa Kua movement or posture should contain the elements of rotation, corkscrew, extension, withdrawal, rising and sinking. When these are all present, the trunk and extremities are optimally stretched and extended (Fig. 1).

There are several neurophysiological consequences of this stretching which are relevant to listening energy. Muscle spindle (located in muscle fiber), Golgi tendon

Sinking Sinking
Figure 1 - Elements of the Pa Kua Posture
organs (found in tendons close to their muscular origin) and certain other receptors in the skin are all stimulated by stretching the muscles. By maintaining this graded activation of receptors, the Pa Kua practitioner, upon contact, can detect slight changes in the force or position of an opponent.

This occurs because more receptors are stimulated above the threshold levels or the receptors that are already stimulated fire at faster rates than with passive stretching alone. In addition, the stretch reflex, which maintains muscle tonus, “increases the tension of selected groups of muscles in order to provide a background of postural tone on which voluntary movements can be superimposed.” (Kandel, p. 18).

In our case, the voluntary movements will be the learned Pa Kua techniques to be executed at the desired angle of collision to neutralize the oncoming Force.


Sticky energy is the ability to catch an opponent’s strike and maintain contact with it without gripping with the fingers. It may sound amazing and supernatural, but it is a normal physical activity which can be explained by Newton’s mechanical laws, the law of conservation of momentum, the law of resultant force and the ratio of friction.

excerpt Pak Kua Journal Vol. 2, No. 6

For those who practice taiji one of the basic requirements is the ability to stick.
How many here would agree with the description provided ?

[Bao]

Agreed. Most of the alleged, so-called 'secrets' are usually hidden in plain view to those who know what to look for.

qi is word used by those from a the culture it originates from. The only confusion seems to be by those outside the culture trying to redefine it.

In working with native speakers, while they know and understand qi culturally it may not be something they can explain because for them there is little need to,
everyone knows it. I use physics in my work which those I work with have come to see as a better more reliable of explaining what may or not be happening the why, what, and why..

Agreed with both and all of it. Good posts.

A new vid from "Martial Man" =

"..., discussing 'Kam Na' locking techniques and the internal energy needed in order to effectively use the locks in application. ..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQshJ7TjJiM

I can agree with that whole body movement is a game changer when it comes to qinna. There's no doubt about it. It's about exchanging "brute muscular force", or forcing a movement into: body connection, whole body movement, leverage, good stability and good control as well as precision. I believe that this gent does it all very good. But you don't need any internal energy or "sink the qi" to accomplish all of what you see here. Again, qi redundancy to make it look more impressive.

...also, IMO understanding how to apply "body connection, whole body movement, leverage, good stability and good control as well as precision" is far more impressing than just "sinking qi", which someone here already said is just a basic fundamental thing, something that is also true.

[johnwang]

In stead of talking about abstract theory, we should talk about more concrete application. We should talk about which MA technique that require "sink the Qi".

You do have to "sink the Qi" when you execute this move.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE_DL17 ... e=youtu.be

You don't need to "sink the Qi" when you do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PU9z0a ... e=youtu.be

[Trick]

In stead of talking about abstract theory,

If I’m not mistaken your Shuai jiao teacher also practiced Taijiquan, and you learned this from him ? Now i would guess your teacher didn’t instruct “sink Qi”; but maybe for example something as, heads up, shoulders down, relax ? A non abstract version of sink the Qi, kind of....

[wiesiek]

maybe we have to describe it,
theoretically speaking: how you do it - "sinking the qi" -?
My Ego simply goin` down, and literally sinking thru yonglingquan /1st kidney meridian point/ all way down to the center of the Earth.
Practically:
I`m goin` down, under his center of gravity, now I`m free to do what I like

[johnwang]

heads up, shoulders down, relax ? A non abstract version of sink the Qi, kind of....

Will my opponent drop to death if I have head up, shoulder down, relax ?

[Trick]

heads up, shoulders down, relax ? A non abstract version of sink the Qi, kind of....

Will my opponent drop to death if I have head up, shoulder down, relax ?

.haha, you know I’m talking about the Taijiquan solo exercises in where there are physical and mental requirements to achieve the correct posture and mental awareness, an focused relaxedness in mind and body we can say.This is the application of Taijiquan solo exercises to be used in combat or in other endeavors...........Yes, in most martial arts this focused relaxedness is achieved through sparring exercises, while in the genius creation of Taijiquan one also condition this awareness trough its solo exercises .....

[Bao]

maybe we have to describe it,
theoretically speaking: how you do it - "sinking the qi" -?
My Ego simply goin` down, and literally sinking thru yonglingquan /1st kidney meridian point/ all way down to the center of the Earth.
Practically:
I`m goin` down, under his center of gravity, now I`m free to do what I like

Exactly, this is correct sinking. You should to take the opponent into consideration. You should feel like sinking below his center of gravity. Actually, you don't need to be lower than him and you don't need to sink much. But if you do this, you can easily take his balance and do almost whatever you want.
....At least it works on most untrained people.

[everything]

that's what Messi does. 'Nothing to do with "internal MA". I get it if that's too "abstract" or "hippie" for some (most?) people. Just a little unfortunate on an "internal" board (and one of the best ones imho).

[wiesiek]

@Bao,
I hear you ,:)
`cause we are in situation keyboard warriors, we can only type so far.
Just consider:
I don`t feel to strong in theory -
a/ I don`t know Chinese
b/ English is my 2nd language
c/ when I started to dig in the "internal" topic 20= y.a., Polish prints was shallow
d/Jarek didn`t write anything so far.

My practical side is much better, simply because I started quite early and worked long and hard to reach >black belt level< in my 18 y.of a.
so,
I can insure you , that for untrained peps EVERY , even most exotic thing, which you work out incidentally, will work!
Best