So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

[I-mon]

Nice videos John! And I definitely agree with you on 2>1. Also what Doc said.

One of my early teachers used the term "sink the qi, raise the spirit", which he described as fully relaxing all of the heaviness in the body towards the ground, while pulling the body towards the sky with the top of the head. Another way into the heaven-earth or heaven-earth-human principle.

Anyway I pretty much think everyone I've read so far in this thread has it right. Relaxing all of the heaviness into the ground, especially the rising and lifting of the abdomen and chest that comes from anxiety or an overactive mind/heart. This is the meditation angle, and it applies to seated, standing, and moving meditation, and to yoga asana. The other angle is *pulling* the whole body towards the ground, from the centre, as the first and arguably most important direction on the way to developing the "heaven-earth" axis (pulling towards the ground and the sky simultaneously, and learning to manipulate the degree of both), on the way towards "unified six-directional force" AKA "hunyuan li" AKA "whole body connected force" AKA "internal connection" or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

[zrm]

I call 2 the Mr Miyagi method and agree it works best. Also comes in handy when you have some unsuspecting students and a bunch of household chores that need doing.

[Yuen-Ming]

[wiesiek]

Well I put forward my interpretation of “sink the Qi” = Relax. No Qi/nervous system electricity/Energy is actually sunken, it moves more smoothly all over because the relaxed state of mind and body. All around/all over, from top to toe alertness....

This is correct. Actually, according to the original “qi theory”, you don’t sink the qi. You sink the heart flame below the water and then there is steam. Qi raises and circulate, but it doesn’t sink.

this is very good answer,
Steam produce pressure,
Kepin` the pressure and ability to move it freely on the will - is the key .

[DeusTrismegistus]

I don't recall my teacher ever saying sink the qi. However it is not hard to do. Qi follows yi. Most people are in their head all the time. Meaning thei awareness is on their thoughts, not on what the body is feeling. Most people also breath into the chest and do not use abdominal breathing. Qi also means breath. To learn abdominal breathing you have to move your awareness to your abdomen or dantian, and feel it moving with your breath. At the same time you have to relax the body, this is feeling the muscles loosen and hang from the frame. Do that and you "sunk your qi". Now maintaining that while doing anything else is a different story.

[everything]

If sinking the qi was just relaxing... why would there be separate instructions to relax (fang song) and sink the qi?

This is a very good question and point. Why would Sun, who learned bagua from Cheng, xingyi from Guo, taiji from Hao, and says he tried to write everything down in plain language in a plain style, talk about this, and not just say it's actually one instruction.

[Bao]

. Why would Sun, who learned bagua from Cheng, xingyi from Guo, taiji from Hao, and says he tried to write everything down in plain language in a plain style, talk about this, and not just say it's actually one instruction.

When did he say that he wrote it down in a plain language? He wrote using a lot of old philosophical terms and in a very compact old way that make literal translations more or less pointless. He says things like that you need to learn how to use pre-heavenly qi and not post-heaven qi. If you haven't read the neidan classics you won't have any clue to what he meant by this.

Btw, I don't recall reading "sinking qi" in his texts. Sinking breath, yes. Sinking qi? ...?

[Bao]

Qi also means breath. To learn abdominal breathing you have to move your awareness to your abdomen or dantian, and feel it moving with your breath. At the same time you have to relax the body, this is feeling the muscles loosen and hang from the frame. Do that and you "sunk your qi".

Yes, this is about it. And yes, you shouldn't focus on qi. You focus on song let your breath sink. So if someone says "now I sink my Qi", they always do something else to gain that feeling (if that is what they do). They don't order their qi to sit down like it was a dog.

[Ron Panunto]

Become one with gravity.

[everything]

Here's a quote on non-literary style

Previous generations passed these arts down only by way of oral instruction and did not make specialized books about them. Whenever theories did happen to get written down, it was often by someone who was not really a practitioner anyway. Even though my skill is still merely crude, I have ventured to make books about Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. The postures within this book are represented by both photographs and explanations, so that all those who have an ambition toward this art can have a model to imitate. If you do your best, you will after a long time obtain its wonders without too much difficulty. The authentic theory within this book has been transmitted through various masters, and since I do not possess a very literary style of writing, you will find it accessible. Wherever I have made mistakes, I hope you will pardon me, and I would be grateful for corrections.
– written by Sun Fuquan of Wan County, Hebei, Oct, 1919

[marvin8]

Agree 100% with Appledog (maybe the only time).
It's a literal instruction in every "classic". they tell you to do this first. Nobody says anywhere that's all you should do. I don't think that constitutes a lot of talk.

Again, the problem is why and how it is used. It's not a good instruction to tell someone "sink the qi". Mostly it's not a good description of what they do when they use this to explain what they do.

It's a literal instruction in every "classic"

I don't remember this advice in any of the classics.

Anyway, how much this is mentioned or not, literally translations of Chinese classics is not a good idea... Classical Chinese is a very different way of expression.

Rather than be "frustrated," you might say to yourself you haven't taken the teacher's curriculum and may be looking at only a small clip. "Sink the chi" may be an abbreviated description of a process that is explained further within the course. You've critiqued Adam Mizner before. (I am not defending him.) But, here are some of his comments on "sink the chi."

Excerpts from "Interview with Sifu Adam Mizner - Tai Chi Chuan Magazine," https://discovertaiji.com/en/interview- ... ne_88.html:

How would you train the form? There are many ways in which people train with tai chi but I get the sense, and I haven’t worked with you, that you do a lot of training in structural work, a lot of attention to where the weight is and that kind of focus?

The first thing we do is train to open the body, so that the joints are mobile and the body is ‘sung’, as well as standing work to sink the qi, that’s our first doorway.

With the opening of the body, are you doing exercises specifically for that?

Yes, we do stretches and joint-opening exercises and ‘sung-gong’ exercises to change the body so that it can become ‘sung’ and you can sink the qi to the dantien and then to the feet. Then you’re capable of attempting to do tai chi form. If your body is not open then you can’t sink the qi, even if you’re doing the form it is not tai chi chuan.

Once we have the basics and the body capable of doing tai chi then we work on the specifics of the form; namely the structure, the coordination, working on the body as well as the ‘sung’, the qi movement at a later stage then how to produce internal power.

When you say letting go, to what extent? I’ve worked with partners who do nothing other than yield and relax their bodies, even to the extent of getting pushed off their feet. Whilst I agree that the key to everything is letting go, surely it has to be based on internal structure and also the notion of returning the force?

Yes this is a common error, I would say they are not letting go at all. I call this kind of relaxation a hidden kind of holding. When one finds true song/letting go then it is easy to maintain correct structure. The combination of song, sinking the qi and correct structure will lead to the development of peng jin, then collapsing will not be a problem. . . .

When you talk about sinking the qi and manifesting the qi can you give an indication of what you mean by this concept of qi?

And there is the golden question. In the Chinese martial arts world there is a clear divide between the qi believers and the physicalists who think there is no such thing as qi and that it is all woo woo. People often try to translate the word qi as energy, life-force, electromagnetic energy, pressure and so on. I dont consider this productive. Every single person I have ever met who can produce the high level skills of taijiquan has used the traditional jargon of the art, Shen, Yi and qi are the fundamental “substances” we use in the cultivation of taijiquan skills. it is best just to leave these terms in the original Chinese and pass on the transmission as it was passed on to us. The traditional way generates the traditional results. If i was forced to translate the word qi as it is used in taijiquan I would say that it is a “process” a word used to point directly at a very specific process that is very hard to explain yet can be known directly by those ready to accept the traditional paradigm and put in the work.

Excerpts from "Yang Zhenduo on: Cultivating a Calm Mind," Tai Chi Magazine. 1998 February, Vol. 22, No. 1:

"In the Yang style, the method is very simple. You sink the qi down to the dantian and you breathe naturally. You maintain your calmness and do not think too much about any other thing. . . ."

"In the Yang style, we take a simple approach. You sink the qi down to the dantian and
breathe naturally. You maintain your calmness and try not to think too much about any
other thing. . . ."

Similarly, he said the Yang style does not talk about dantian rotations internally. "The
Yang style doesn't concentrate on the internal rotation of the dantian. We just sink the qi to
the dan-tian. This is also part of the gradual development of the Yang style so it can be
practiced by everyone."

"As long as you settle the qi in the dantian and your heart is calm, then your practice is natural and calm. That is enough. This is easier to learn and easier to practice for everyone. You loosen the entire body, coordinate all the movements in the joints so that your four limbs are dependent on the movement of the waist, and you use the waist like the universal joint of a car. When the waist leads the movement, the waist will engage the movement of the abdomen."

[everything]

Here is a similar statement from Sun's xingyi book

While once at Bai Xiyuan’s home in Beijing, I got to see one of the Yue Fei manuals, not an original copy of course, but a handwritten copy made by someone in a later generation. It was not very detailed and unfortunately contained no explanations of its terminology, only the barest of text from beginning to end. I was suddenly inspired by this, immediately wishing to provide more complete information, even though I was fully aware that my level of learning and skill was superficial, and without being tempted to make anything up [in order to fill information gaps]. I secretly made my own copy and then deeply studied it, going through it posture by posture until bit by bit I had built up the material to make this book. There is no decorative language in it at all, for in my studies I have not dared to hold on to even the slightest exaggerations. Wherever flaws are found within my work, I hope my comrades will correct me, for which I would be very appreciative.
– sincerely written by Sun Fuquan [Lutang] of Wan County, Baoding, 1915, 1st month, 15th day

[everything]

Here is some commentary from Sun on internal vs. external. He is talking about "sinking qi to dantian"

I have practiced boxing arts for several decades. In the beginning, I too accepted common views. Every day I accumulated energy into my elixir field until my lower abdomen became as hard as a rock. When I roused the energy in my abdomen, I could throw an opponent some eight or ten feet away. Whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, at any time it was thus. I thought that by accumulating energy through sinking it down, I would likely attain the art’s internal power, and that those who were unable to sink energy to their lower abdomens were all of the external school.

(he goes on to say how this view wasn't really the whole thing...)

edit: adding color coding for readability

[everything]

Here are 3 mistakes of beginners from his bagua book. In talking about the 3rd mistake he mentions not sinking qi to dantian as a mistake.

The three mistakes are: 1. excessive energy, 2. awkward effort, 3. sticking out your chest and lifting your belly.
Using “excessive energy” means that you are being too hard and making yourself brittle. You will easily generate a contrary energy which fills your chest, and your lungs will suffer and develop illness. By analogy, when a central ruler falls out of harmony, all his surrounding ministers become ineffective in their duties.
Using “awkward effort” means that throughout your body, your blood cannot circulate well, your energy channels cannot be comfortable, and passive fire will ascend, producing stagnation from awkward energy in your heart, a stagnation which will lead to illness. At a mild level, this will create spasming in the muscles. At a severe level, you will be stricken with pain. In even worse cases, it can lead to the forming of sores and infections.
To “stick out your chest and lift your belly” means that a contrary energy moves upward instead of returning to your elixir field. Your feet will be without root, floating upward as light as duckweed. Your boxing technique will not obtain a centered harmoniousness, and even with countless methods to compensate, you would be incapable of ever having a stable stance.
If these three mistakes are not understood, the training can be harmful to your body. But if they are understood, the training can lead you to wisdom. You must cleanse your mind to get the best results, ridding yourself of these mistakes thoroughly, and then you will have achieved the essentials of the beginning level of boxing studies. Thus it is said in the Book of Documents [document 29]: “When planting virtue, make it flourish. When trimming evil, cut it at the root.” While you practice, all of you, be very mindful.

[everything]

Here is a section from the end of where Sun talks about requirements to practice bagua from his bagua book, and makes some comparison of xingyi and bagua, but he emphasizes energy returning to elixir field (dantian).

Although the arts of Xingyi and Bagua are divided into associations with the square circle and round circle, their theory is simply to restrain your power while moving, causing your energy to consolidate and return to your elixir field. Great sages by such means possessed discipline and sincerity, both of which are closely linked to the way of boxing arts. Great heroes trained both wisdom and courage. You likewise must begin by understanding the mathematical concept [of the trigrams]. Great artists broadened their understanding by deeply studying things. You likewise must begin by understanding the function of intention, energy, and power.
Even though the postures of both arts are different, their principles are the same. While practicing these arts, understand these principles. Use your elixir field as the basis, take intention, energy, and power to be the function, and let the nine requirements be the standard. If you practice according to these principles, then even if you do not achieve mastery, you will nevertheless not be far from it.