So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:51 am

Rather than be "frustrated," you might say to yourself you haven't taken the teacher's curriculum and may be looking at only a small clip. "Sink the chi" may be an abbreviated description of a process that is explained further within the course


I have no idea who you are talking to. I know what it means. I am frustrated to the misuse of the term.


About the Sun Lutang quote:
"When I roused the energy in my abdomen, I could throw an opponent some eight or ten feet away. Whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, at any time it was thus. I thought that by accumulating energy through sinking it down, I would likely attain the art’s internal power, and that those who were unable to sink energy to their lower abdomens were all of the external school.
...
Song said: “Breathing is divided into internal and external, but in boxing arts there’s no distinction between internal and external. If you are good at nurturing energy, then it’s internal. If you’re not good at nurturing energy, then it’s external.""


Didn't remember the details in this quote though I have used it myself in a couple of posts. I checked the original text and sure Sun use the word "qi". Brennan has translated qi sometimes into "breath" and sometimes to "energy". However, I agree with most of his translation here (though some of the subtleties are lost. But that's the only way to translate this kind of text. You must always choose a level of meaning and stick to it. ). The thing is that in Chinese, some words are exchangeable, just as "qi", which is often used to mean breath instead of "energy". When Yang Zhenduo or Sun Lutang say "sink qi" I believe that what they mean is to sink the breath and do not refer to the "energy" "qi". But again, sometimes teacher can mean both qi and breath at the same time, because and again, the concepts are exchangeable. And so again, it's better to understand these things from a practical pov, gaining personal practical experience and not be too concerned about the theory.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:34 pm

Bao wrote:
Rather than be "frustrated," you might say to yourself you haven't taken the teacher's curriculum and may be looking at only a small clip. "Sink the chi" may be an abbreviated description of a process that is explained further within the course


I have no idea who you are talking to. I know what it means. I am frustrated to the misuse of the term.

What part of Adam's description in the posted interview is not "mostly just about relaxing (sung)," teaching how to actually do something, a good description, and misuse of the term?"

Bao wrote:
GrahamB wrote:If sinking the qi was just relaxing... why would there be separate instructions to relax (fang song) and sink the qi?


I would not say that "sink the qi" is just or only "relax". But pretty much the same. You need to really relax and you need a good base as well. It's a feeling of internally sinking, dropping or release. Drop or release is better. I think you know what I mean.


marvin8 wrote:
Bao wrote:
everything wrote:Agree 100% with Appledog (maybe the only time).
It's a literal instruction in every "classic". they tell you to do this first. Nobody says anywhere that's all you should do. I don't think that constitutes a lot of talk.


Again, the problem is why and how it is used. It's not a good instruction to tell someone "sink the qi". Mostly it's not a good description of what they do when they use this to explain what they do.

Rather than be "frustrated," you might say to yourself you haven't taken the teacher's curriculum and may be looking at only a small clip. "Sink the chi" may be an abbreviated description of a process that is explained further within the course. You've critiqued Adam Mizner before. (I am not defending him.) But, here are some of his comments on "sink the chi."

Excerpts from "Interview with Sifu Adam Mizner - Tai Chi Chuan Magazine," https://discovertaiji.com/en/interview- ... ne_88.html:
Ronnie Robinson wrote:How would you train the form? There are many ways in which people train with tai chi but I get the sense, and I haven’t worked with you, that you do a lot of training in structural work, a lot of attention to where the weight is and that kind of focus?

The first thing we do is train to open the body, so that the joints are mobile and the body is ‘sung’, as well as standing work to sink the qi, that’s our first doorway.

With the opening of the body, are you doing exercises specifically for that?

Yes, we do stretches and joint-opening exercises and ‘sung-gong’ exercises to change the body so that it can become ‘sung’ and you can sink the qi to the dantien and then to the feet. Then you’re capable of attempting to do tai chi form. If your body is not open then you can’t sink the qi, even if you’re doing the form it is not tai chi chuan.

Once we have the basics and the body capable of doing tai chi then we work on the specifics of the form; namely the structure, the coordination, working on the body as well as the ‘sung’, the qi movement at a later stage then how to produce internal power.


When you say letting go, to what extent? I’ve worked with partners who do nothing other than yield and relax their bodies, even to the extent of getting pushed off their feet. Whilst I agree that the key to everything is letting go, surely it has to be based on internal structure and also the notion of returning the force?

Yes this is a common error, I would say they are not letting go at all. I call this kind of relaxation a hidden kind of holding. When one finds true song/letting go then it is easy to maintain correct structure. The combination of song, sinking the qi and correct structure will lead to the development of peng jin, then collapsing will not be a problem. . . .

When you talk about sinking the qi and manifesting the qi can you give an indication of what you mean by this concept of qi?

And there is the golden question. In the Chinese martial arts world there is a clear divide between the qi believers and the physicalists who think there is no such thing as qi and that it is all woo woo. People often try to translate the word qi as energy, life-force, electromagnetic energy, pressure and so on. I dont consider this productive. Every single person I have ever met who can produce the high level skills of taijiquan has used the traditional jargon of the art, Shen, Yi and qi are the fundamental “substances” we use in the cultivation of taijiquan skills. it is best just to leave these terms in the original Chinese and pass on the transmission as it was passed on to us. The traditional way generates the traditional results. If i was forced to translate the word qi as it is used in taijiquan I would say that it is a “process” a word used to point directly at a very specific process that is very hard to explain yet can be known directly by those ready to accept the traditional paradigm and put in the work.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:56 pm

marvin8 wrote:What part of Adam's description in the posted interview is not "mostly just about relaxing (sung)," teaching how to actually do something, a good description, and misuse of the term?


So your point was that there are people who don't make misuse of the term?

I believe I have read most of what he has said in interviews and I have probably watched every single clip that Adam and HME has put up, some of them have been taken away for a long time ago. Yes, I remember them clearly...

I would rather not discuss this gent again, there's too much being said in every possible direction. But anyway... There is a possibility to understand things in different ways. When it comes to certain teachers, you really need to get to know them good. Really, really good. Otherwise it can be easy to misunderstand or misinterpret things. I say this in general because a couple of my own teachers, I really started to dislike when I got to know them better. Some others I wish I had appreciated more.

For the gent you are referring to, I've heard him saying many things like "now I sink my Qi", "just sink the Qi" etc. And in other clips: "you don't need to even think about qi", "don't even think about qi". These things are not in conflict, but it might seem confusing for students. Sometimes if you don't understand why your teacher says something or the context, there might be misunderstandings. Some of them might follow a student for years before he wakes up. This is why I believe that as a teacher you should be very careful with certain types of language and be very clear about how your words might be comprehended. So telling someone to "sink the qi" is not good teaching. Explaining what you do in a demo with "now I sink the Qi" is not good teaching (and most often intentionally deceptive). With that said, I have no clue why so many people go and visit certain teachers who keep repeating "sink the qi" (Now I am not referring to Adam).
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Trick on Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:55 am

everything wrote:Here's a quote on non-literary style

Previous generations passed these arts down only by way of oral instruction and did not make specialized books about them. Whenever theories did happen to get written down, it was often by someone who was not really a practitioner anyway. Even though my skill is still merely crude, I have ventured to make books about Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. The postures within this book are represented by both photographs and explanations, so that all those who have an ambition toward this art can have a model to imitate. If you do your best, you will after a long time obtain its wonders without too much difficulty. The authentic theory within this book has been transmitted through various masters, and since I do not possess a very literary style of writing, you will find it accessible. Wherever I have made mistakes, I hope you will pardon me, and I would be grateful for corrections.
– written by Sun Fuquan of Wan County, Hebei, Oct, 1919


In R.Smith’s “Master and Method” book he recalls one of his teachers saying that Sun was an rudimentary Boxer but good at producing books, or something like that...
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:15 am

everything wrote:Here's a quote on non-literary style

...The authentic theory within this book has been transmitted through various masters, and since I do not possess a very literary style of writing, you will find it accessible. ...
– written by Sun Fuquan of Wan County, Hebei, Oct, 1919


1919... The language and literary tradition has changed a bit. So again, the question is understandable for whom? The instruction on postures and movements, yes they are very clear. And that was more his aim, not to explain theory, but to teach the arts as a physical health exercise.


Trick wrote:In R.Smith’s “Master and Method” book he recalls one of his teachers saying that Sun was an rudimentary Boxer but good at producing books, or something like that...


Sun Lutang started to learned boxing when he was a kid and it's said that he fought a lot when he was young. I believe that he had fighting skills, but he was very much of a politician... He always travelled, met different people learned this and that. So one can have doubt that he developed any art to the depths. ...Maybe Bagua or Xingyi...

When Sun started studying for Tai chi, Hao Weizhen was already 70 years old and Sun Lutang was 51 years old. Sun only studied with him for a few years until Hao became ill. After that he also met the Yang family and exchanged boxing knowledge as a man that had left fighting behind him for a very long time. Sun always regarded Tai Chi more as a health exercise than a fighting art, so he modified Hao's art accordingly.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:25 am

Logic would suggest that if someone like Sun Lu-Tang did indeed possess only a rudimentary level of fighting skill and internal cultivation development, his highly respected reputation would not have been so during his lifetime or have survived thereafter as it has. How many of practitioners of any fighting art today, regardless of personal skill level, will even be remembered by anyone outside their own family 80+ years following their death? For example, how many of you here know the names of all your great-grandparents?

Contemporary reputations may or may not be accurate or well deserved, but enduring reputations for excellence are most often warranted, imo. 8-)
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby everything on Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:30 am

same.

he said he is writing down what his teachers told him to preserve it since they taught orally. so to dismiss this instruction, we either say he's a liar or that's not true in some way, or that Guo and Cheng also did not understand that of which they supposedly spoke, and their reputations presumably endure. those of us who have studied hao taiji, xingyi from Guo's line, or bagua from Cheng's line and think we know a thing or two would then have to question our own source of info and our own line. why would we think our own teacher or random people on the internet know more than Sun? it becomes illogical unless we want to believe the entire generation and stories are somehow fraudulent. if something he says doesn't make sense, who do you question? Sun, Guo, and Cheng? or should you empty your cup, perhaps?
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Taijispirit on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:03 pm

Just do it, live in the moment there is nothing else.
Lamenting why people say this or that, or should do this or less of that....the mind is disturbed.
If we understand what it means to sink the chi, then just do it.....relax release and the chi will sink down naturally.
Let people talk or not, teach or show off..it doesn't matter.
The problem is making distinctions or attachments, this is good or this is bad I like this, I don't like that, tired of this, not tired of that.
The tao is accepting things as they are, wanting it to be different is a disease.
Find peace in yourself relax and the qi will sink and settle down, release and be empty now.....empty the mind, empty the body, seek emptiness always.
The form is emptiness, emptiness is the form, this is true for all you thoughts,feelings and perceptions. Stop your thinking.
let go, the more you can give up the more you will have.
If we are thinking and complaining, comparing.. then we are not doing.
You would need to sink your qi for a long period for it to begin to start to fill your body and overflow.
OK my rant is over.
Last edited by Taijispirit on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby windwalker on Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:10 pm

Taijispirit wrote:Just do it, live in the moment there is nothing else.
Lamenting why people say this or that, or should do this or less of that....the mind is disturbed.
If we understand what it means to sink the chi, then just do it.....relax release and the chi will sink down naturally.
Let people talk or not, teach or show off..it doesn't matter.
The problem is making distinctions or attachments, this is good or this is bad I like this, I don't like that, tired of this, not tired of that.
The tao is accepting things as they are, wanting it to be different is a disease.
Find peace in yourself relax and the qi will sink and settle down, release and be empty now.....empty the mind, empty the body, seek emptiness always.
The form is emptiness, emptiness is the form, this is true for all you thoughts,feelings and perceptions. Stop your thinking.
let go, the more you can give up the more you will have.
If we are thinking and complaining, comparing.. then we are not doing.
You would need to sink your qi for a long period for it to begin to start to fill your body and overflow.
OK my rant is over.



+1 ;)
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:15 am

everything wrote:same.

he said he is writing down what his teachers told him to preserve it since they taught orally. so to dismiss this instruction, we either say he's a liar or that's not true in some way, or that Guo and Cheng also did not understand that of which they supposedly spoke, and their reputations presumably endure. those of us who have studied hao taiji, xingyi from Guo's line, or bagua from Cheng's line and think we know a thing or two would then have to question our own source of info and our own line. why would we think our own teacher or random people on the internet know more than Sun? it becomes illogical unless we want to believe the entire generation and stories are somehow fraudulent. if something he says doesn't make sense, who do you question? Sun, Guo, and Cheng? or should you empty your cup, perhaps?

Now I slightly get the feeling this post has something to do with my previous post - “In R.Smith’s “Master and Method” book he recalls one of his teachers saying that Sun was an rudimentary Boxer but good at producing books, or something like that...” - Notice I mention about a guy who was an (almost?)contemporary with Sun Lutang, someone who was the winner of an big tournament(Nanjing?) who said, and here I should correct my quote to “Sun Lutang was an minor boxer”....I myself have no idea how good a boxer Mr,Sun was, but most certainly good enough for me wanting to have studied with him anyway. If he would have told me to sink my Qi, I would have done so :)
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:51 am

After reading up on Feng Shui on the Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_shui just got me thinking on some simple random thoughts i have had on the Qi concept ......Philosopher Henri Bergson term a Elan vital-vital force, “which Bergson linked closely with consciousness – with the intuitive perception of experience and the flow of inner time.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élan_vital “Consciousness” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness ........”Professor Max Knoll suggested in a 1951 lecture that qi is a form of solar radiation.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_shui This take on the concept of Qi might tie into the concept of the Holy spirit of Christianity perhaps also to Islam and other religions. So the Qi could maybe be a kind of radiation/energy from the sun that if our consciousness is rightly attuned we will be able to harness, store(sink?), grow and circulate it to an higher degree.....,and the fruit of it is gaining miraculously health and strength......Yes I know most of you want to just talk about “ the most effective way to punch someone in the face” ...But if gettin that radiation rightly attuned in you fists, that could do the thing
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:05 am

Trick wrote:After reading up on Feng Shui on the Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_shui just got me thinking on some simple random thoughts i have had on the Qi concept ......Philosopher Henri Bergson term a Elan vital-vital force, “which Bergson linked closely with consciousness – with the intuitive perception of experience and the flow of inner time.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élan_vital “Consciousness” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness ........”Professor Max Knoll suggested in a 1951 lecture that qi is a form of solar radiation.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_shui This take on the concept of Qi might tie into the concept of the Holy spirit of Christianity perhaps also to Islam and other religions. So the Qi could maybe be a kind of radiation/energy from the sun that if our consciousness is rightly attuned we will be able to harness, store(sink?), grow and circulate it to an higher degree.....,and the fruit of it is gaining miraculously health and strength......Yes I know most of you want to just talk about “ the most effective way to punch someone in the face” ...But if gettin that radiation rightly attuned in you fists, that could do the thing


The concept of qi is not unique to Asia. The western magical tradition works with the same energy but uses it in different ways. The middle pillar exercise is very similar to qigong and lesser orbit. The energy isn't necessarily solar but is all over. It is certainly linked to altered states either via meditation, ritual, or other methods.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:39 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote:
Trick wrote:After reading up on Feng Shui on the Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_shui just got me thinking on some simple random thoughts i have had on the Qi concept ......Philosopher Henri Bergson term a Elan vital-vital force, “which Bergson linked closely with consciousness – with the intuitive perception of experience and the flow of inner time.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élan_vital “Consciousness” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness ........”Professor Max Knoll suggested in a 1951 lecture that qi is a form of solar radiation.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_shui This take on the concept of Qi might tie into the concept of the Holy spirit of Christianity perhaps also to Islam and other religions. So the Qi could maybe be a kind of radiation/energy from the sun that if our consciousness is rightly attuned we will be able to harness, store(sink?), grow and circulate it to an higher degree.....,and the fruit of it is gaining miraculously health and strength......Yes I know most of you want to just talk about “ the most effective way to punch someone in the face” ...But if gettin that radiation rightly attuned in you fists, that could do the thing


The concept of qi is not unique to Asia. The western magical tradition works with the same energy but uses it in different ways. The middle pillar exercise is very similar to qigong and lesser orbit. The energy isn't necessarily solar but is all over. It is certainly linked to altered states either via meditation, ritual, or other methods.

Yes. And if take the idea of Qi from the sun, Qi emit from all stars and they form an net of meridians between them. And then the center of galaxies radiate this Qi and form a meridian net between them and so on, and so on.....As above so below, micro and macro.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby everything on Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:29 am

In a more modern view, the energy from the universe came from the Big Bang. Some of that energy is in the stars ("heaven"). Much later, one particular ball of fire is the source of energy for earth life (bacteria, photosynthesis, etc.). Researchers are using bacteria powered solar panels now. https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... ia-cloudy/ - maybe we can call the entire thing "qi". But what the hell does that mean? Does it help anything? Health? Punching?

If we take the stories of Dong at face value, that he learned circle walking from Daoists who did qigong only (and why would this story even be unusual), is there actually anything interesting or practical there? Literally, part of baguazhang comes from qigong work. Well we can just speculate that these guys got old and interested in "health" so whatever. Interesting but irrelevant except that taijiquan and qigong have proven health benefits, and that's good, but not really relevant. But that isn't what they said. Yes sure, Sun did mention health, but he also said once his dantian was full (of energy) it was easy to do throws. Maybe this is a BIG LIE? Well it's not that hard to look into. It isn't very hard to learn a little MA. It isn't very hard to learn a little qigong. If the latter only helps with health, that helps your "self protection" in both a direct and indirect way, so why not. The bare minimum is already useful. If it helps merge into your actual MA, great. If not, great. Maybe you get some glimpse into what they're actually talking about. If it could help throws, we'd all like that. Of course, did Fedor or Tyson need this? No. But at middle age, can we really become Fedor? Can Fedor even become a better Fedor? No, of course not! OTOH, is this internal thing only "old person martial arts"? Maybe... it definitely seems like better "old person martial arts" than any other old person martial arts, at the very least. Hahaha ::) ;D
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:25 am

This take on the concept of Qi might tie into the concept of the Holy spirit of Christianity perhaps also to Islam and other religions. So the Qi could maybe be a kind of radiation/energy from the sun that if our consciousness is rightly attuned we will be able to harness, store(sink?), grow and circulate it to a higher degree


I don't think so. Qi is a meta-physical concept, philosophical concept. I don't believe that religion should be mixed into the pot. One good philosopher to read to understand how Qi is viewed in Chinese tradition is Zhang Zai. He had a great impact on how Qi has been viewed in China for the last thousand years.

"The qi or vital force is, according to Zhang Zai, the fundamental substance by which all processes of the universe can be explained. First of all, according to Zhang Zai, the qi or vital force is something forever in the process of changing. Second, the perpetual change of the vital force follows a definite pattern of activity according to the two principles, the yin and yang. The changes undergone by qi result from the perpetual activity of the yin and yang principles. Zhang Zai's conclusion is that there is nothing in the universe that cannot be explained in terms of the interaction of the twofold activity of qi."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Zai

"In the beginning there was Qi" ;) According to Zhang Zai, Qi was already present in non-being (Wu or Wuji). Being (You) came into existence through the differentiation of Qi into Yin and Yang.

"Qi" can be so much and has so many different aspects that it's more or less pointless to discuss qi as a general concept. In martial arts it can mean both energy or just breath. You sink the breath for the qi to circulate, but you don't sink energy to circulate energy. Here's a difference. And yet, sure you can still say "sink the qi" because qi and breath are exchangeable. But it can be comprehended as confusing and it's easy for unexperienced practitioners to make mistakes.

So IMO it's better to not think in terms of qi or energy, but to understand the meaning of these concepts by practical practice, understanding by own personal experience. Otherwise "qi" can easily become intellectual masturbation that keep the concepts in the head and makes it harder for the practitioner to explain for him or herself what is experienced through the personal practice. The actual practice is what is important, not the thinking about what you do or believe in things that needs to be comprehended from a practical pov.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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