So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby wiesiek on Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:36 am

@everything
like go internal ?
just relax and compress the fascia while doin` above,
or....
use the QI! dammed ;)
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:21 am

My practical side is much better, ...
...I can insure you , that for untrained peps EVERY , even most exotic thing, which you work out incidentally, will work!


Agreed 8-)

Or at least I think I understand what you meant ;D

You know, I've met people who practiced 20+, 30+ years or even longer. On many levels, some of them still remain as perpetual beginners. They don't have faith in their art, they tense up, they adapt hard methods from other styles. And they've heard all of this "sink the qi" talk and similar over and over again through the years. It doesn't help them, it doesn't do them anything good. People need practical guidance, like "do this - Do A,B,C" and continuous practical practice and good methods to practice principles with partners. There are some gaps, some holes in (practical) understanding that keep students from developing. Mostly I believe that they never achieve confidence in some very basic, simple things. Sometimes due to lack of practice. Sometimes because they put their teacher on a piedestal and unconsciously want to keep this difference, to have someone to admire and look up to.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby wiesiek on Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:09 am

sure thing, Bao
practice with partner/s/ is the only way to get it right, and be able using it in "real time".
Solo practice of the form/s/or meditation, is kinda of polishing tool,
you`re unable carving the stone by polishing cloth, is that simple :)
however humans tends to keep "comfort zone" and chose side paths.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Yuen-Ming on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:33 am

Not sure if you guys realize it, but the original chinese sentence should already give out a clue that there is a problem with the idea we need to “sink the Qi”.

In chinese it is 氣沉丹田 “Qi sinks to Dantian”, the subject is “Qi” and not “I” (as in “[I] sink the Qi”)

;)

YM
Last edited by Yuen-Ming on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:41 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:Not sure if you guys realize it, but the original chinese sentence should already give out a clue that there is a problem with the idea we need to “sink the Qi”.

In chinese it is 氣沉丹田 “Qi sinks to Dantian”, the subject is “Qi” and not “I” (as in “[I] sink the Qi”)

Nice.

I always try to bring this up, but people want to ignore it. I think the problem is that one needs to actually build the physical structures of their Dantian, which most people don’t want to do. So then they have to make up some other meanings for it, and leave out the word Dantian.

.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:50 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:Not sure if you guys realize it, but the original chinese sentence should already give out a clue that there is a problem with the idea we need to “sink the Qi”.
In chinese it is 氣沉丹田 “Qi sinks to Dantian”, the subject is “Qi” and not “I” (as in “ I sink the Qi”)
;)


Yes!!! Exactly. It's right there.

Qi can sink, but you don't sink it. You can't force it, only create the right conditions for it to sink.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby GrahamB on Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:33 am

Everybody is so absolutely convinced other people are doing it wrong it’s hilarious.:)

The problem is always - strangely - other people :)
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:18 pm

It’s about knowledge & experience vs ignorance. Ignorant people are funny. If you have some real arguments to back up your view, then it’s a different story.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentation_theory
Last edited by Bao on Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby GrahamB on Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:26 pm

I'm still waiting for you to give an actual "how to" ;D
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:58 pm

Thought I did. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I should just stop here and try to not disappoint people who want things to be magic or complex and hard to understand. That some things are in fact very simple is often hard to accept... :P
... things like moving while minding calmness + relaxation + low abdominal breathing ....
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Appledog on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:12 pm

GrahamB wrote:I'm still waiting for you to give an actual "how to" ;D


When I was poor and failing school to practice Tai Chi, I had finally figured it all out, and my qi began to flow, and I had a number of surreal experiences during the process of nailing down what the practical physical processes (i.e. what my intention should be) behind 'doing it right'.

Over the years I began to realize that about 1 in 50 to 1 in 100 people who were teaching tai chi in my city were capable of doing what I had figured out. The question then becomes, I actually damaged my life to get this kind of idea, what are you willing to do in order to get it? It's frivolous for me to say that if you spend six hours a day doing your forms you will get it, because that is not what you are capable of doing. what you are really asking (me) is how to avoid all the mistakes you have to go through in order to get to the golden mountain within. Well I can tell you it isn't easy even if you have a shortcut, essentially it is something (which I believe) you generally have to be shown -- and before you can be shown you have to put in some amount of effort. That being said, I used to fantasize that I would charge some amount of money for the information, say, $5,000 or $10,000. After all, it's worth it, I would tell myself. I was just placing some value on the knowledge and the skills I had acquired in order to somehow value them. How naieve I was, how young.

Nowadays, I'm actually very well off and my idea of what 'value' means in terms of life, what people want to do with their life, how they live their life, career and living choices, etc. and I would value this knowledge somewhere closer to $50,000. I.E. this knowledge is worth about $40,000 or $50,000. The problem is, those who balk, don't really understand that in the first place any one who has gotten lucky with a career has this money but people who have devoted themselves to practice have not; so in the very first place what value this knowledge is and what it represents is EITHER the hard work it takes to get to that point, OR, if it is possible to get some kind of short cut, the bare minimum time and effort it takes to get to the entry point (the door) PLUS the tuition fee/discipleship fee/instruction fee (if we take this as westerners where 'discipleship' just means i'll teach you without holding anything back but minus the social bullshit we as westerners don't really understand or grasp anyway).

You see in the end none of what I picked up will ever help me in my life. I'm not planning on fighting in any wars or battles. I will likely never be mugged or robbed due to certain factors I won't get into right just here, so what I mean is, in general I will likely never use my art. There will be no event for which I am remembered. The only reason I will be remembered if at all is because I started the line or lineage I have started and that is it. So what is all this useful for? Nothing.

If you don't understand and you want to understand I am telling you straight, that you will understand if you devote the time and effort it takes to go from point A to point C via point B. However there is a shorter way. Collect around $50,000 and give me a message. I am not saying give it all to me. But you are going to need living accommodations and food while you are studying with me. The rest will be your fee -- most of it, probably, depending on a few things, which you will learn (which I will teach you). Hint: I am not asking for money I am trying to express to you the time-and-life value you will need to sacrifice to even begin learning this stuff. $50,000 is probably cheap, over one's lifetime.

The thing is if you are not willing to value it at this level (at a minimum) I seriously and honestly have to ask you, what is this to you anyways? Just a hobby? A curiosity? How far do you want to go here and for what purpose? I have been here for a while now and the whole knowing-the-people-here thing works in reverse too, now I know you a lot better than when I first came here and frankly I don't think you have what it takes to get to where I am in the art and I am at a disgustingly low level myself.

What I have learned should be summed up more closely, not as some kind of secret or how-to guide but that martial arts is a career and lifestyle choice and if you have not made the choice to get on that kind of bandwagon you are just a hobbyist and you shouldn't expect to get too far. That is just the reality of the whole thing, as sad and depressing as it is. If you can't devote the majority of your time to the art or you are unable to afford the true value of it's instruction you are not really ready to learn it and you will end up failing to grasp the art and certain concepts anyways. It's a sort of psychological thing -- you cannot learn it if you do not place great value on it.

For you and anyone, if you want this art you must do more than simply desire it or study it in your free time. It is inconceivable to me, you see, that someone would fail to 'get it', having put the time in [edit: with the proper instruction and an open mind -- ppl can easily practice for decades and not improve if they don't accept the teachings].

From here I guess we could continue by discussing, how badly do you want this stuff, or have you already given up and decided to go down some other road?
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby GrahamB on Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:44 pm

My, that's a cute story. Unfortunately,

my qi began to flow,


means you don't actually know anything I would want to learn from you.

I'm sure you'll find a minion one day who will eagerly pay you $50,000. Good luck.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:22 pm

Bao wrote:
Yuen-Ming wrote:Not sure if you guys realize it, but the original chinese sentence should already give out a clue that there is a problem with the idea we need to “sink the Qi”.
In chinese it is 氣沉丹田 “Qi sinks to Dantian”, the subject is “Qi” and not “I” (as in “ I sink the Qi”)
;)


Yes!!! Exactly. It's right there.

Qi can sink, but you don't sink it. You can't force it, only create the right conditions for it to sink.

Sounds right. Otherwise it’s a kind of navel-gazing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalosk ... uvre_2.jpg
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:37 pm

I’ll give it for 35k US$ :) ....Joking, I think I get the essence of what Appledog is saying...maybe
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby wiesiek on Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:08 am

Hmm,
I was thinkin`, that phrase "you don`t tryin` >do something< with the qi, ..."
is well known + nuf clear , even for native speaking fox, :o
and
in the same time answering Graham q?., too ,
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaww,
I get it
`cause I`ve been thinkin` , I get it all wrong! :D
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