So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:26 am

The thing is if you are not willing to value it at this level (at a minimum) I seriously and honestly have to ask you, what is this to you anyways? Just a hobby? A curiosity? How far do you want to go here and for what purpose?


You are sincerely misguided. If you go out with this attitude that you can buy knowledge, you will never get what you want.

Most of the old "Masters" didn't ask for anything. They just wanted to see that you were dedicated to the art and how you wanted to show your gratitude In the old days, asking for money was a very bad thing, it was just something you didn't do. If you stayed at a teacher's home, you would pay by helping out in the house, cleaning, buy food and maybe other things for the house. But you would never hear them ask for anything. If you didn't show gratitude and understand the value of what they taught they would just throw you out and that's the end of it. Even today, the most skilled and generous teachers you can find will ask for very little if anything at all. But they can be hard to find.

However there is a shorter way. Collect around $50,000 and give me a message
.

;D Lol! Trying to fetch people that want to take a short cut. Words of a scoundrel.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:42 am

When in Okinawa the teacher at the dojo I studied was happy to teach for an bottle of fine spirits a week....My teacher in Beijing collect knifes and swords, I brought him a nice all handmade Sami hunting knife after that he did not want any weekly fee anymore.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Yuen-Ming on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:06 am

GrahamB wrote:I'm still waiting for you to give an actual "how to" ;D


How does a "stone sink into the water"?

For that to happen you need a stone, you need water and the proper conditions for the stone to sink i.e. nothing on its way for the stone to descend. Practice is meant for degenerating those three conditions to be there

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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:38 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I'm still waiting for you to give an actual "how to" ;D


How does a "stone sink into the water"?
...
Practice is meant for degenerating those three conditions to be there


Yes! But a stone is maybe not the best analogy. A stone sink directly down in the water.

Some people say that for qi to sink is like green tea leaves sinking. They need time and stillness to sink down from the top of the water down to bottom of the cup. If you don’t treat the cup with care, you might have them to rise up again.

Qi also needs time and stillness. The three conditions are Mind, Body and breath, they need to cooperate.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:46 am

Bao wrote:Yes! But a stone is maybe not the best analogy. A stone sink directly down in the water.

Some people say that for qi to sink is like green tea leaves sinking. They need time and stillness to sink down from the top of the water down to bottom of the cup. If you don’t treat the cup with care, you might have them to rise up again.

Qi also needs time and stillness. The three conditions are Mind, Body and breath, they need to cooperate.


You might be better served by comparing sinking the qi to other conditions
for example when its said that the qi is:

dispersed
raised
depleted
ect...

If one is told they need to sink their qi, it might be better to approach it from
what it shows or means when its not...
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Yuen-Ming on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:33 am

windwalker wrote:You might be better served by comparing sinking the qi to other conditions
for example when its said that the qi is:

dispersed
raised
depleted
ect...


The Qi that is said to be "dispersed, raised, depleted etc" is not the same Qi that 'sinks to Dantian'

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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby windwalker on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:51 am

Yuen-Ming wrote:
windwalker wrote:You might be better served by comparing sinking the qi to other conditions
for example when its said that the qi is:

dispersed
raised
depleted
ect...


The Qi that is said to be "dispersed, raised, depleted etc" is not the same Qi that 'sinks to Dantian'

YM


cool, now's your chance to explain why, and what it means to sink the qi.. ;) .
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:13 am

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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Appledog on Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:03 pm

GrahamB wrote:I'm still waiting for you to give an actual "how to" ;D


GrahamB wrote:My, that's a cute story. Unfortunately,
my qi began to flow,

means you don't actually know anything I would want to learn from you.
I'm sure you'll find a minion one day who will eagerly pay you $50,000. Good luck.


You didn't read my post and you didn't understand it. On top of that you're a liar. You probably thought you were being cute, or trying to draw out a conversation. But from other perspectives it can look like a form of moral degradation. It seems you politely ask for information then shut people down when they try to help you. There's more, but I will say it to other people below.

Trick wrote:I’ll give it for 35k US$ :) ....Joking, I think I get the essence of what Appledog is saying...maybe


I don't think he would buy it for $35k US, he doesn't even actually value the concept itself. But, my response to Bao contains more.

Bao wrote:
The thing is if you are not willing to value it at this level (at a minimum) I seriously and honestly have to ask you, what is this to you anyways? Just a hobby? A curiosity? How far do you want to go here and for what purpose?


You are sincerely misguided. If you go out with this attitude that you can buy knowledge, you will never get what you want.

Most of the old "Masters" didn't ask for anything. They just wanted to see that you were dedicated to the art and how you wanted to show your gratitude In the old days, asking for money was a very bad thing, it was just something you didn't do. If you stayed at a teacher's home, you would pay by helping out in the house, cleaning, buy food and maybe other things for the house. But you would never hear them ask for anything. If you didn't show gratitude and understand the value of what they taught they would just throw you out and that's the end of it. Even today, the most skilled and generous teachers you can find will ask for very little if anything at all. But they can be hard to find.

However there is a shorter way. Collect around $50,000 and give me a message
.

;D Lol! Trying to fetch people that want to take a short cut. Words of a scoundrel.


No, you are sincerely misguided. Allow me to explain (no point explaining it to Graham, he isn't paying attention).

There is no mind, no mind, no mind and no mind. There is no mind, meaning brainless. There is no mind meaning someone who is contradictory and negative. There is no mind meaning someone who doesn't care and there is no mind meaning a mind which has no thoughts. Each one of these is a kind of poison but if you get past them all then you have a sort of no mind which is like going with the flow, most easily framed as a taoist concept but sometimes called a lack of attachment in buddhism.

In my post I said, among other things,

Appledog wrote:Hint: I am not asking for money I am trying to express to you the time-and-life value you will need to sacrifice to even begin learning this stuff. $50,000 is probably cheap, over one's lifetime.


I also mentioned this would count mainly as a tuition fee. Let's break that down. At $20/hr instruction time, that is maybe 2 years of 2 hours a day instruction and 2-6 hrs additional practice time and food and boarding. I think that would be pretty fair, actually, for a 2 year package. The issue is if someone is willing to enter that kind of program I.E. if they are willing to devote the time and energy in lieu of their normal life, i.e. if they are willing to undertake the opportunity cost of doing such a thing.

grahamB is not, on several levels, and is apparently not even interested in the concept. Putting a $ value on the entire thing and asking him to pay it underscores and underlines this point. He doesn't understand, he doesn't understand, he doesn't understand, he doesn't want to understand, and he will never understand. The matter has been decided for him; you cannot do it alone, you need someone to instruct you, and just as you have said, the master doesn't want money per-se he will make a decision based on other factors.

The decision has basically already been made; you don't have to ask me if it is true or not. I'm not really involved.

As I said: From here I guess we could continue by discussing, how badly do you want this stuff, or have you already given up and decided to go down some other road?

Don't you think this question has already been answered? So why was it asked? Did anything need to be said here at all?
Last edited by Appledog on Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby GrahamB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:16 pm

I think somebody needs to see a doctor.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:40 am

The formula I was given is simply a top down process as follows: Relax, Release, Sink, Center, Root, Circulate and Store, or Circulate and Emit. Take this for whatever it may be worth to you, or discard it out of hand, as you wish. However, it works for me. 8-)
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Yuen-Ming on Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:44 pm

windwalker wrote:cool, now's your chance to explain why, and what it means to sink the qi.. ;) .


"Qi" is a very generic terms and refers to a million things.

Even when you restrict its meaning to just "body Qi" it can be many many things and the qualities you refer to, expressed the way you did, apply more precisely to 'yingqi' or even 'weiqi' which are 'substances' present inside the body that move around it in order to keep it alive.

Basically, one very much cannot be alive without them.

The "qi" that 'sinks' we are taking about is a different kind of substance, one that is gathered from outside the body and that, once it is absorbed in the upper trunk and given proper environment, naturally sinks down. That same 'external' qi, without specific practice, is partially absorbed by the lungs and becomes through further transformation your 'regular' qi (yingqi, weiqi etc). That “qi” does not “sink” but flows.

So one needs specific practice in order to have it 'sink' and needs specific practice also to have it contained in the lower belly. Without specific practice it is automatically transformed in the upper trunk and utilised by the body for survival.

YM
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Appledog on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:51 am

Yuen-Ming would I be correct in assuming that the primary or most common kind of blockage that prevents this sinking and conversion process from occurring is contained in the shoulders? So that first you would need to sink or settle the shoulder area and just nearby it to facilitate this process? Thx
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:14 am

Appledog wrote:Yuen-Ming would I be correct in assuming that the primary or most common kind of blockage that prevents this sinking and conversion process from occurring is contained in the shoulders? So that first you would need to sink or settle the shoulder area and just nearby it to facilitate this process? Thx


It's not that simple as to remove blockage. Yuen-Ming's answer is good:

So one needs specific practice in order to have it 'sink' and needs specific practice also to have it contained in the lower belly.


Physically, sinking the shoulders is not enough. For circulation, all of the joints must be opened. The gua for whole body circulation. Spine of the lower back and for the shoulder blades meet are also considered joints areas, so for shoulders, not only the outer shoulders should be considered, but the whole area of the scapula. It's not only a matter of settle or sink, but about open up this area just as you open up the gua. For sinking and circulating qi, both physical and mental aspects should be considered.

I wrote briefly about requirements of "opening the three gates" (通三關 / Tōng Sān Guān) in this blog post from about two years ago. From a neidan perspective though: https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... ree-gates-通三關-tong-san-guan/

So it's all much more complicated than just lowering your body to "sink the qi". As Yuan-Ming said, special training is required as well as time.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, so tired of all of the "sink the qi" talk....

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:36 pm

Yuen-Ming wrote:
windwalker wrote:cool, now's your chance to explain why, and what it means to sink the qi.. ;) .


"Qi" is a very generic terms and refers to a million things.

Even when you restrict its meaning to just "body Qi" it can be many many things and the qualities you refer to, expressed the way you did, apply more precisely to 'yingqi' or even 'weiqi' which are 'substances' present inside the body that move around it in order to keep it alive.

Your explanations accord with gen TCM theory and thought. The "substances" have yet to be proven but do serve and act according to the theory.

Basically, one very much cannot be alive without them.

The "qi" that 'sinks' we are taking about is a different kind of substance, one that is gathered from outside the body and that, once it is absorbed in the upper trunk and given proper environment, naturally sinks down. That same 'external' qi, without specific practice, is partially absorbed by the lungs and becomes through further transformation your 'regular' qi (yingqi, weiqi etc). That “qi” does not “sink” but flows.

On another thread some asked me about internal work. What you've written aligns with my own understanding as it should being based on the same underlying theories.

So one needs specific practice in order to have it 'sink' and needs specific practice also to have it contained in the lower belly. Without specific practice it is automatically transformed in the upper trunk and utilised by the body for survival.

YM


As JW might say or point out.

What combat effectiveness can one gain by doing this, that is shown or done by others who are effective in combative sports or noted for combative skills
using these methods.

With out this context, one could be describing any or most qi gong practices....not having to act or be effective within it.

One might ask if can can demo the same effects are the same things happening inside.

My point was that I don't find this way of thinking very useful as the effects can be explained and used using verbiage and theories that are quite well defined and demonstratable.

thanks for the post,,,I agree with what was posted its my understanding as well...I just dont find it useful to explain things in that way
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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