the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Praise the lord!

I was reviewing Choy Lee Fut Sup Ji Kau Da Kune "cross form" named so because you move in a cross on the ground just before I read that article....

made me think.... could it be? Why a cross? Choy Lee Fut was caught up in the same "strengthen the nation" nationalist movement.....

It makes sense in the context of social upheaval, objective criteria for community involvement of a nation (town village, province, etc) and the acquisition of tools in developing and modernizing a nation and Zhang saw Christianity (vis a vis Daoism, Confucianism , etc ( in that modernization process., as a tool that would provide the impetus for getting rid of what the nation had become at that time.

Anyone read of the Lebanese American who was one impetus in conceptualiation of the public heath system in China? Drug addiction (opium), unsanitary conditions, lack of a central sanitary department, etc all provided a framework for this modern China along with those who saw Japan (despite being the ENEMY) as a positive source of the direction of a nation.

GrahamB wrote:made me think.... could it be? Why a cross? Choy Lee Fut was caught up in the same "strengthen the nation" nationalist movement.....

In a word, no. The character for the number ten in Chinese is a "cross". The form translates to "Character ten fist (form)". Movement along the character ten moves one through the four cardinal directions. It is a very common pattern for beginning forms in CMA, and predates any Christian influence.

Don’t know if chinese martial artist read into the (Christian)cross as the founder of Aikido referred to the cross - https://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/mo ... way-cross/

kenneth fish wrote:

GrahamB wrote:made me think.... could it be? Why a cross? Choy Lee Fut was caught up in the same "strengthen the nation" nationalist movement.....

In a word, no. The character for the number ten in Chinese is a "cross". The form translates to "Character ten fist (form)". Movement along the character ten moves one through the four cardinal directions. It is a very common pattern for beginning forms in CMA, and predates any Christian influence.

Ah, thanks. I did not know that.

Interesting that the cross is from the simplified character set.

"In the 1930s and 1940s, discussions on character simplification took place within the Kuomintang government, and a large number of Chinese intellectuals and writers maintained that character simplification would help boost literacy in China.[15] In 1935, 324 simplified characters collected by Qian Xuantong were officially introduced as the table of first batch of simplified characters, but they were suspended in 1936."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplifie ... efore_1949

The character for "ten" is the same for everybody, simplified or not.
(There are more complex versions, too, but those are for special purposes - like money or writing checks.)

From Wikipedia:

The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, officially the Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace, was an oppositional state in China from 1851 to 1864, supporting the overthrow of the Qing dynasty by Hong Xiuquan and his followers. The unsuccessful war it waged against the Qing is known as the Taiping Rebellion. Its capital was at Tianjing (present-day Nanjing).

A self-proclaimed convert to Christianity, Hong Xiuquan led an army that controlled a significant part of southern China during the middle of the 19th century, eventually expanding to a size of nearly 30 million people. The rebel kingdom announced social reforms and the replacement of Confucianism, Buddhism, and Chinese folk religion by his form of Christianity, holding that he was the second son of God and the younger brother of Jesus. The Taiping areas were besieged by Qing forces throughout most of the rebellion. The Qing government defeated the rebellion with the eventual aid of French and British forces.

"On July 30, 1864, Qing forces exhumed, beheaded, and burned his body.[64] His body was later exhumed on orders of Zeng Guofan to verify his death, and then cremated. Hong's ashes were later blasted out of a cannon in order to ensure that his remains have no resting place as eternal punishment for the uprising. The Taiping Rebellion was suppressed by Qing forces later in 1864."

Wow - talk about a send off!

The Genesis account of creation provided the formation of the four signs 四象 generated from Yin and Yang. As the classical elements of water, fire, sky and earth can be deduced from Bagua: water, lake, earth, mountain, fire, wind, sky, thunder.

GrahamB wrote:"On July 30, 1864, Qing forces exhumed, beheaded, and burned his body.[64] His body was later exhumed on orders of Zeng Guofan to verify his death, and then cremated. Hong's ashes were later blasted out of a cannon in order to ensure that his remains have no resting place as eternal punishment for the uprising. The Taiping Rebellion was suppressed by Qing forces later in 1864."

Wow - talk about a send off!

YeaH the Manchus where really angry with this guy However his name and the written history of it all they couldn’t blast away

The history of Qing Dynasty (1644 to 1912) or the Manchurian domination of China, sort of explained the missing links between Internal Martial Arts dated back to the Ming Dynasty (1368–1644) and the appearance of Taijiquan, Baguaquan and Yongchunquan (Wing Chun) in the late Qing period. There is also good reason to believe that Liuhebafa is a Manchurian development of Internal Martial Art. As the founder Wu Yihui was a Manchurian and was trained in the Qing Imperial Naval College. There is also the Taixuquan 太虚拳 claims to be the Wudang Internal Martal Art taught in the Qing imperial household.

Here’s a quick shot from the book “Secret of the Golden Flower”, and a hypothesis that Nestorianism merged with Daoism-

https://imgur.com/gallery/ci23XNP

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This mentions the shape of the character 10
https://imgur.com/gallery/sWskqgM

From: https://books.google.com/books/about/Daoism_Meditation_and_the_Wonders_of_Ser.html?id=qvfdCgAAQBAJ

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Yeung wrote:The history of Qing Dynasty (1644 to 1912) or the Manchurian domination of China, sort of explained the missing links between Internal Martial Arts dated back to the Ming Dynasty (1368–1644) and the appearance of Taijiquan, Baguaquan and Yongchunquan (Wing Chun) in the late Qing period. There is also good reason to believe that Liuhebafa is a Manchurian development of Internal Martial Art. As the founder Wu Yihui was a Manchurian and was trained in the Qing Imperial Naval College. There is also the Taixuquan 太虚拳 claims to be the Wudang Internal Martal Art taught in the Qing imperial household.

Yes, that’s something I’ve been theorizing on in the back of my head for some time. That original exercises of Tongbeiquan might have its origin from and around Manchuria, and early on mixed with Manchurian/(Mongolian)Shuai jiao wrestling and formed up styles of “internal” martial arts then later on labeled Taoist martial arts as they spread during the Qing dynasty.........Speaking of liuhebafa’s Wu Yihui there is also for example the wudang sword master Sung Wei-I from also from Liaoning province, the guy who may have taught the sword to the top Taijiquan guys of that time..

There were two schools in Guangzhou claiming the Manchurian origin of International Martial Arts. One suggested the improvement was made by the Manchurian whip cracking skills in "fajin". I was not impress because the bullwhip cracking skills have already well developed in the rest of the World. Try this link:

Guinness World Record: Most Bullwhip Cracks in One Minute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqH7fUUg8U4