Bagua vs tactical walk

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:47 pm

marvin8 wrote:Good footwork should include balance and alignment with the ability to change—efficiently transition between defense and offense, not falling over.

Are we talking about old, sick, and weak who is afraid to fall and die right at that moment?

I'm sorry to say that this kind of Taiji principle is too conservative.

- Always keep your head straight up.
- Never move your center out of your base.
- ...
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:59 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:. As far as I know, this training is not part of the Bagua mud step. Why?

Maybe because mud step is not primary an combat technique, but more an leg/feet awareness practice ?

- What do you mean "leg/feet awareness"?
- What does awareness mean?
- How can you walk if you don't feel where your legs and feet are?

I'm not very good at "abstract' discussion.

Yeah well “awareness” might be the wrong/incomplete wording, there are more details to its practice, details that makes it an “internal” MA practice......As this is a IMA’s forum so what makes IMA’s practice an IMA’s practice has been mentioned many times in threads here, so I won’t elaborate further....The Liu WanFu quote in Windwalkers post tells that of the internal martial arts practice what’s meets the inexperienced(in IMA practice)onlookers eyes is mostly what is not to be seen...sort of...So when you see Bagua mud step, you see it as an combat technique, when it’s not.
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:07 pm

johnwang wrote:
I'm sorry to say that this kind of Taiji principle is too conservative.

- Always keep your head straight up.
- Never move your center out of your base.
- ...

Heads up and keep your center. If one walks through life like that, life will probably be good. Conservative TJQ seem to be a good teacher. 8-)
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:12 pm

Trick wrote:So when you see Bagua mud step, you see it as an combat technique, when it’s not.

Are you saying that

- Bagua is not a combat art?
- Mud step cannot be used in combat?

Why should anybody wastes his time to train Bagua if Bagua is not a combat art? ???

Trick wrote:Heads up and keep your center. If one walks through life like that, life will probably be good. Conservative TJQ seem to be a good teacher. 8-)

Are you talking about "Taiji for health"?
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:16 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Good footwork should include balance and alignment with the ability to change—efficiently transition between defense and offense, not falling over.

Are we talking about old, sick, and weak who is afraid to fall and die right at that moment?

I'm sorry to say that this kind of Taiji principle is too conservative.

- Always keep your head straight up.
- Never move your center out of your base.
- ...

You left out the other part of my reply about the OP topic:
marvin8 wrote:I disagree (in the context of circle walking/stepping). It is "bad" to practice stepping as described and shown in johnwang's "dynamic rooting" video.

@ :19 of your "dynamic rooting" video, you lose your balance because your head is beyond your foot. While trying to regain one's balance, one is vulnerable to an attack.

Can you explain or show "The easiest way to move is to take advantage on the gravity. . . . leaning is a must" while stepping/footwork?

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:The easiest way to move is to take advantage on the gravity. In order to do so, the leaning is a must.

1. You move your center outside of your base.
2. The gravity will pull you into that direction.
3. You then re-adjust your base so your center will be in your base again.
4. Repeat 1 - 3.

If you don't lean (move your center outside of your base), you will only use your own energy to move. You will not use the "gravity" to move.

The dynamic rooting (with leaning) is much more difficult to train than the static rooting (no leaning). . . .

dynamic rooting:



I disagree (in the context of circle walking/stepping). It is "bad" to practice stepping as described and shown in johnwang's "dynamic rooting" video.

Good footwork should include balance and alignment with the ability to change—efficiently transition between defense and offense, not falling over.
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby Trick on Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:17 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:So when you see Bagua mud step, you see it as an combat technique, when it’s not.

Are you saying that

- Bagua is not a combat art?
- Mud step cannot be used in combat?

Why should anybody wastes his time to train Bagua if Bagua is not a combat art? ???

Trick wrote:Heads up and keep your center. If one walks through life like that, life will probably be good. Conservative TJQ seem to be a good teacher. 8-)

Are you talking about "Taiji for health"?

Now you’re being deliberately silly
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:20 pm

Trick wrote:Now you’re being deliberately silly

I'm talking about "combat only". If you are talking about "health only" then you and I will just like chicken talk to duck. ;D
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:31 pm

marvin8 wrote:While trying to regain one's balance, one is vulnerable to an attack.

Not if your opponent's body is under your control.

marvin8 wrote:Can you explain or show "The easiest way to move is to take advantage on the gravity. . . . leaning is a must" ...

Image
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby marvin8 on Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:50 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:While trying to regain one's balance, one is vulnerable to an attack.

Not if your opponent's body is under your control.

marvin8 wrote:Can you explain or show "The easiest way to move is to take advantage on the gravity. . . . leaning is a must" ...

Image

There may be a misunderstanding on my part. I would agree that one can practice being unbalanced during certain techniques (e.g., sacrifice throws). Although, tai chi may limit these type of throws. However in entry, striking and defense footwork, one should be balanced and aligned.

Some Bagua footwork including throws.

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Published on Apr 10, 2010

Showing a demonstration of Chinese Pa Kua:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNQUtRjHAiA
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:57 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp7nT9u ... e=youtu.be

very close to what is done in some n-mantis work... a solo demo showing a throw with follow through, while remaining in control.
I would question the title of dynamic rooting vs dynamic equilibrium. What JW is showing to me seems to be the latter.

Physics has no word for "rooting" it does have a word pertaining to equilibrium. While we might talk about the title
the clip it self shows a moving body in equilibrium.

"In mechanics, it can be specifically defined as a state of a system where the system is in equilibrium, but the velocity is not zero (i.e. The system is moving at a constant velocity)." as shown in JW clip.

very similar to what is shown in this clip.
https://youtu.be/dA5-Q6wALTg
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:23 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:Now you’re being deliberately silly

I'm talking about "combat only". If you are talking about "health only" then you and I will just like chicken talk to duck. ;D

The IMA’s solo exercises but perhaps TJQ more so have a multifaceted quality built in to them(as i see it). To a bigger or lesser extent quality of health and combat skill may come out of its practice, it depends on the player’s goals, understanding and focus. Maybe somehow because of this multifaceted aspect is why they don’t do well in combat sports environment. Most of those with a purely combat oriented mind will probably leave and take up wrestling for an example, some might still keep a toe or two or maybe a foot into the IMA(Taijiquan) practice in hope for some health benefits or maybe other reasons.........Now I’ll keep my chicken talk as I soon will head for the roasted duck restaurant..yummy :)
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby GrahamB on Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:16 pm

Found this interesting 'advanced silk reeling' video of Chen style - looks a lot like Bagua :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8JBxWQ ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby edededed on Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:21 am

johnwang wrote:
edededed wrote:Hmm - what do you mean by "drop your upper body?" Little hard to imagine...

When you bite your shin bone behind your opponent's ankle, your opponent will step back. You will need to use your hand to catch his ankle to achieve you "ankle pick". This will require some body flexibility training as part of the mud step training.

For example,

- You are in a right bow-arrow stance.
- Your right leg shin bone bites behind your opponent's left leading leg from inside.
- Your right hand reach to your right leg ankle (to catch your opponent's escaping left leg).
- Your left hand push back on your opponent's left shoulder.

If you integrate this training, your mud step will have good combat usage (as well as your flexibility training).


Thanks John - I think I kind of can picture it now.

The way I learned it, tangnibu is trained as an exercise to increase certain abilities (e.g. agility of movement).
Once you get some ability, you can learn specific application walking patterns, antui kicking methods, and so forth.

Some applications sound a bit similar to what you described, except some differences such as bagua tending to avoiding leaning, etc.
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:30 pm

edededed wrote: bagua tending to avoiding leaning, etc.

If you don't lean, you can't reach to your opponent's ankle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXKHThq ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Bagua vs tactical walk

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:43 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you explain or show "The easiest way to move is to take advantage on the gravity. . . . leaning is a must" ...

Image

There is no opponent to attack you, when one is skiing.

Again, you deleted part of my quote that was highlighted in blue:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you explain or show "The easiest way to move is to take advantage on the gravity. . . . leaning is a must" while stepping/footwork?

Can you explain . . . while stepping/footwork (not technique)?
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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