Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:39 am

Just looking at some information on standing up sleeping, and that might explain the technique of passive stance or sinking into your stance as follows:

Sleep involves a general relaxation of the muscles, including those responsible for keeping a person standing upright. Humans simply cannot lock out their supportive joints long enough to allow for hours of uninterrupted sleep while remaining vertical. ... I actually can only sleep standing up.

Sleeping upright is advantageous for large animals because they would be slow to lumber to their feet if attacked. For smaller animals the reduction in leg springiness outweighs this benefit. Horses, zebras and elephants sleep standing up. Cows can too, but mostly choose to lie down.

Now, if you manage in some way to prevent your joints from bending by e.g. using braces and leaning against some wall, you could technically fall in sleep and thus sleep while standing. This will add pressure to your spinal cord, hip and leg joints and thus it would not be very advisable. Another problem is that gravity will pull blood downwards to your feet, like it already does when you're awake and walking. When you're lying down, the veins in your feet get a chance to recover from all the pressure. If you don't do this, your feet might swell up causing damage in your feet that could eventually lead to amputation. So, sleeping while standing is not a good idea.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby Yeung on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:47 am

cloudz wrote:eccentric phase/ exercise and or 'the active state' are important and interesting areas to explore in the world of training.. However it can't be one without the other ultimately; whether a TCC system or anything else.. It's Yin and Yang man!


Yin and Yang are active and passive, not eccentric and concentric. Stretching is active and recoil is passive, but stretching can be active and passive. A passive stance is one that stretched the muscles passively with the weight of the body instead of standing with legs straight.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:50 am

Can you you say anything about how one pulls pushes or punches in TCC with 'non concentric movements'; what that really means and what that entails.
Otherwise this just seems to lack relevence. What is even the relevence of your last post - I don't mean to be rude - to a movement practice like TCC. Sure we have stances and also hold stances, but that is a small part. I also never saw it in relation to the idea of sleeping standing up - it's never held an attraction strangely.. lol. Ahh the comforts of a nice warm bed!
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:57 am

Yeung wrote:
cloudz wrote:eccentric phase/ exercise and or 'the active state' are important and interesting areas to explore in the world of training.. However it can't be one without the other ultimately; whether a TCC system or anything else.. It's Yin and Yang man!


Yin and Yang are active and passive, not eccentric and concentric. Stretching is active and recoil is passive, but stretching can be active and passive. A passive stance is one that stretched the muscles passively with the weight of the body instead of standing with legs straight.


Yin and Yang is a philosophical concept that points to and describes complimentary 'opposing' forces that exist in the world. It can apply to eccentric and concentric pairing and phases of muscle(s) as well as it does to active and passive terms or whatever other category of binary opposites eg. light and dark. Muscles have binary function & actions: the lengthening and shortening (opposite actions) all over the body are complimentary to eachother, as well as working in opposition as pairings (doing the opposite to eachother at same time eg. tricep & bicep). The terms concentric and eccentric are simply the terms that describe either the phase of lengthening / extension or shortening / contraction.

The above classification of modern terms in relation to yin yang is your doing; you actually have no basis on which to exclude certain categories of binary terms whilst including others just because it doesn't fit your personal theory, ideology or sensibility. It's completely arbitrary on your part. You can't just be part inclusive, you have to be all inclusive or not at all. It just so happens that the way muscles work is very yin yang anyway..

So what is your basis for the above statement about Yin and Yang ?
I have heard it applied to the body and groups of muscles in CMA, none of the descriptions exclude any kind of muscle activity or modern decription.
I would also think it pretty obvious, from say a taoist based philosophical perspective, at least; that the way the body works naturally would be in harmony with Yin and Yang theory.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:47 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:43 am

cloudz wrote:Can you you say anything about how one pulls pushes or punches in TCC with 'non concentric movements'; what that really means and what that entails.
Otherwise this just seems to lack relevence. What is even the relevence of your last post - I don't mean to be rude - to a movement practice like TCC. Sure we have stances and also hold stances, but that is a small part. I also never saw it in relation to the idea of sleeping standing up - it's never held an attraction strangely.. lol. Ahh the comforts of a nice warm bed!

Previous thread by Yeung, "Tai Chi as an eccentrically-biased movement patterns," https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 2ac49cd986


In the study below, a tai chi master used both concentric and eccentric contractions to perform ward off, roll back, press, and push.

Excerpt from “Kinematic and electromyographic analysis of the push
movement in tai chi,” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... p00339.pdf:
S P Chan, T C Luk, Y Hong on 2003 wrote:Objective: To analyse the kinematics and electromyographic characteristics of tai chi.
Methods: An experienced tai chi master was asked to perform a sequence of basic movements: ward off, roll back, press, and push. The movements were videotaped and digitised using a motion analysis system. Electromyographic activities of the lumbar erector spinae, rectus femoris, medial hamstrings, and medial head of gastrocnemius were recorded by surface electrodes. The push movement data were analysed.
Results: The medial hamstrings and medial head of gastrocnemius muscle groups maintained low activity, with higher electromyographic values in the lumbar erector spinae and substantially higher ones in the rectus femoris during the push movement. Both concentric and eccentric contractions occurred in muscles of the lower limbs, with eccentric contraction occurring mainly in the anti-gravity muscles such as the rectus femoris and the medial head of gastrocnemius. The forward and backward shifts in centre of gravity (CG) were mainly accomplished by increasing and decreasing respectively the joint angles of the bilateral lower limbs rather than by adopting a forward or backward postural lean. The path of the CG in the anteroposterior and mediolateral component was unique, and the sway or deviation from the path was small. The master maintained an upright posture and maintained a low CG (hips, knees, and ankles bent) while travelling slowly and steadily from one position to another.
Conclusion: The eccentric muscle contraction of the lower limbs in the push movement of tai chi may help to strengthen the muscles. . . .
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:34 am

marvin8 wrote:
cloudz wrote:Can you you say anything about how one pulls pushes or punches in TCC with 'non concentric movements'; what that really means and what that entails.
Otherwise this just seems to lack relevence. What is even the relevence of your last post - I don't mean to be rude - to a movement practice like TCC. Sure we have stances and also hold stances, but that is a small part. I also never saw it in relation to the idea of sleeping standing up - it's never held an attraction strangely.. lol. Ahh the comforts of a nice warm bed!

Previous thread by Yeung, "Tai Chi as an eccentrically-biased movement patterns," https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 2ac49cd986


In the study below, a tai chi master used both concentric and eccentric contractions to perform ward off, roll back, press, and push.

Excerpt from “Kinematic and electromyographic analysis of the push
movement in tai chi,” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... p00339.pdf:
S P Chan, T C Luk, Y Hong on 2003 wrote:Objective: To analyse the kinematics and electromyographic characteristics of tai chi.
Methods: An experienced tai chi master was asked to perform a sequence of basic movements: ward off, roll back, press, and push. The movements were videotaped and digitised using a motion analysis system. Electromyographic activities of the lumbar erector spinae, rectus femoris, medial hamstrings, and medial head of gastrocnemius were recorded by surface electrodes. The push movement data were analysed.
Results: The medial hamstrings and medial head of gastrocnemius muscle groups maintained low activity, with higher electromyographic values in the lumbar erector spinae and substantially higher ones in the rectus femoris during the push movement. Both concentric and eccentric contractions occurred in muscles of the lower limbs, with eccentric contraction occurring mainly in the anti-gravity muscles such as the rectus femoris and the medial head of gastrocnemius. The forward and backward shifts in centre of gravity (CG) were mainly accomplished by increasing and decreasing respectively the joint angles of the bilateral lower limbs rather than by adopting a forward or backward postural lean. The path of the CG in the anteroposterior and mediolateral component was unique, and the sway or deviation from the path was small. The master maintained an upright posture and maintained a low CG (hips, knees, and ankles bent) while travelling slowly and steadily from one position to another.
Conclusion: The eccentric muscle contraction of the lower limbs in the push movement of tai chi may help to strengthen the muscles. . . .


The link to the other thread I think leads us to a far better frame of reference "eccentrically biased movement pattern" on which to understand what this may be about. As it was proven that both eccentric and concentric movements occur in an exprienced tai chi player it's nonsense to try to frame anything as a non concentric exercise or martial art. We can try to bias our training - whatever it is - to eccentric or concentric exercise. But you cannot eliminate or deny the other.

You posted a clip of eccentric biased weightlifting linked to mma training I believe - that's an example right there. If you can use weightlifting to bias to the eccentric phase what makes TCC based movement any different to any other when it comes to eccentric bias ??

Out of a sequence of movements one eccentric muscle contraction was highlighted as maybe helping to strengthen the muscle. I think it would be more surprising if one helpful eccentric movement was not found in such a study..
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:58 am

And that's sort of where I wound up on the subject.

It's basically trying to say "internal martial arts" without saying "internal". I suppose that is to lend it legitimacy and avoid what is arguably a loaded term.

Dressing it up in a pseudo-scientific term like non-concentric to lend it credibility would seem to do the opposite. The martial Arista most interested in the work are apt to miss it since you aren't using familiar terms. Sports medicine professionals and trainers are apt to dismiss it because it's based around a nonsense term.

Not trying to be mean or anything, the work sounds interesting, I just wonder if it's best presented as it is currently
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:13 am

It's also worth noting that this occured in what is refered to as an 'anti gravity muscle', so weight bearing. This could simply mean that non loaded eccentric movements are naturally weight bearing in such an instance (lower body) which leads to the strengthening effect.

The point I'm tying to post about here is not the benefits (or lack of) of one type of muscle contraction vs. another. But rather a martial art or movement exercise will contain both, regardless. And it is nonsense to deny one by using terminology like 'non concentric'. It is also nonsense to link use of "brute strength" with concentric muscle contraction. The above scientific proof shows that this tai chi master used both eccentric and concentric muscle contraction to move through the form sequence - so according to Yeung is using "brute strength". Bullshit is bullshit, sorry.

Isn't the point about this kind of training to unify the whole body. When moving as an integrated single unit there will be both kinds of muscle contractions taking place naturally; and a lod more stuff besides. Just starting from that basis - this is all just meh.. If anything we are trying to reduce reliance on muscle strength, so talking about the benefits of strengthening the muscles while good is not really the point of TCC or IMA. It's just a happy by product and a really minimal one. If you want strength training there are better examples, like locomotion exercises for example.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:33 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:32 am

Interesting... though there is something about the title...

I don't know really if there is something that could be called Non-concentric Martial Arts. That seems like a very broad term. Maybe better to narrow it down? "Biomechanics of Non-concentric body methods of Asian Martial Arts" might be a better title.

"Not tensing up" is one aspect of the practice to stay relaxed, stay in balance and remain physical and mental control. Nothing wrong about focusing on details IMO.

But "not tensing up" is something even good boxers do. A larger package where the main focus of practice is on staying relaxed, staying in balance and remain physical and mental control might be more representative for certain types of martial arts. To narrow it down to IMA and similar, you also need to bring in cultural aspects, history and thought.


cloudz wrote:It is also nonsense to link use of "brute strength" with concentric muscle contraction. The above scientific proof shows that this tai chi master used both eccentric and concentric muscle contraction to move through the form sequence - so according to Yeung is using "brute strength". Bullshit is bullshit, sorry.


This is something I don't quite agree with. The point is not how the muscles naturally work when you move them, but certain arts' focus on not deliberately or unwillingly tensing up the muscles when you perform a technique or use a certain method. Of course every Tai Chi practitioner uses both eccentric and concentric muscle contraction to move through the form. But you don't use deliberate effort to tense up the muscles. A Tai Chi form is not a isometric muscles strengthening technique where you use intense isometric muscle contraction. The focus is different. Maybe the title "Non-concentric" is not the best term to use, but there are certainly different focuses and philosophies about how to use muscle contractions in different martial arts.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:43 am

Bao wrote:

cloudz wrote:It is also nonsense to link use of "brute strength" with concentric muscle contraction. The above scientific proof shows that this tai chi master used both eccentric and concentric muscle contraction to move through the form sequence - so according to Yeung is using "brute strength". Bullshit is bullshit, sorry.


This is something I don't quite agree with. The point is not how the muscles naturally work when you move them, but certain arts' focus on not deliberately or unwillingly tensing up the muscles when you perform a technique or use a certain method. Of course every Tai Chi practitioner uses both eccentric and concentric muscle contraction to move through the form. But you don't use deliberate effort to tense up the muscles. A Tai Chi form is not a isometric muscles strengthening technique where you use intense isometric muscle contraction. The focus is different. Maybe the title "Non-concentric" is not the best term to use, but there are certainly different focuses and philosophies about how to use muscle contractions in different martial arts.


You are missing the point.. you cannot control whether your muscles contract or not under load, it doesn't matter if it is eccentric (lengthening) or concentric (shortening) - it is still a muscle contraction. The strengthening benefit highlighted in the study came from eccentric muscle contraction. A contraction will happen given a certain set of circumstances - in the study of the taichi master moving through a sequence BOTH types of muscle contraction where observed.

So what are you trying to say now ?

Yeung pretty much stated that the use of concentric muscle contraction is equatable to the use of brute strength in Martial Arts. No one has made the point about the level of or intensity of contraction and or asscociated tension. You just have made that point. So what don't you actually agree with that I have actually stated above.

I know you are the great pusher of removal of tension and 'relaxing' ever more - that's absolutely great, I truly commend you. Just stop believing no one else gets it.. It does not relate to what I said OR what Yeung is claiming. Excessive tension can relate to both eccentric and concentric phases - or are you claiming otherwise ?
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:17 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:44 am

Non-concentric Martial Arts are those arts that claim to be not using any concentric muscle contraction or known as “brute force” by the practitioners of Internal Chinese Martial Arts.


there you go, direct from the OP.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:54 am

Both concentric and eccentric contractions occurred in muscles of the lower limbs


Direct from the scientific experiment posted by Marvin8 that measured the movement of a tai chi master..

Therefore according to Yeungs assertion in his abstract this taichi guy was using brute strength.
According to the famed RSF commentator Bao - his shit was obviously fake!
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby marvin8 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:17 am

Yeung gave an example of a non-concentric movement (his opinion), Absorb and Repel, https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 5&start=15:

Yeung wrote:Here is an example of rotating the crotch (angle or region of the angle formed by the junction of two parts or members,such as two legs or branches.):

https://www.facebook.com/39716348706001 ... 414084219/

Maybe you can compare that with some videos on Taijiquan as they push concentrically forward instead of rotating the crotch to generate power.
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:42 am

cloudz wrote: Yeung pretty much stated that the use of concentric muscle contraction is equatable to the use of brute strength in Martial Arts. No one has made the point about the level of or intensity of contraction and or asscociated tension. You just have made that point. So what don't you actually agree with that I have actually stated above.

I know you are the great pusher of removal of tension and 'relaxing' ever more - that's absolutely great, I truly commend you. Just stop believing no one else gets it.. It does not relate to what I said OR what Yeung is claiming. Excessive tension can relate to both eccentric and concentric phases - or are you claiming otherwise ?


Ok, I understand what you mean. Yes, some of it wierdly expressed...
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Re: Biomechanics of Non-concentric Martial Arts

Postby cloudz on Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:17 am

marvin8 wrote:Yeung gave an example of a non-concentric movement (his opinion), Absorb and Repel, https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 5&start=15:

Yeung wrote:Here is an example of rotating the crotch (angle or region of the angle formed by the junction of two parts or members,such as two legs or branches.):

https://www.facebook.com/39716348706001 ... 414084219/

Maybe you can compare that with some videos on Taijiquan as they push concentrically forward instead of rotating the crotch to generate power.


::)

this isn't the first forum that this whole idea has been brought up by the same people, not first thread here. examples like this are ok, so so limited but fair enough. I hope we can all recognise that the example is magnitudes away from covering typical forms, weapons, tui shou, applications across IMA not just TCC.

The same questions and concerns are brought up and never answered. I would actually go further and say, based on that clip, if any MA went out of it's way to become 'non concentric' it would very quickly become ever more useless and worse off for it.
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