Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:59 am

[edit] Is this about the old, ‘Skipping through the woods is equal to/ not equal to real tai chi’ debate, from roughly 2003?


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4759
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:32 am

This is about the old, ‘Skipping through the woods is equal to/ not equal to real tai chi’ debate, from roughly 2003?


I literally have no idea at all. I don't recall the discussion.

It is completely irrelevant to today and this thread regardless.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4558
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby BruceP on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:19 pm

middleway wrote:For instance, do you look at old published scientific studies that are now outdated or proven false, and hold the scientists who wrote them to those old studies? That viewpoint is truly ridiculous under scrutiny


You're comparing apples to oranges. TJQ"s principles and methods are pretty much set in stone. While the strategies for applying them offer latitude enough to accord with the abilities and physical wherewithal of the individual, the ideas themselves stand fast because they follow the principles and methods. Still waiting for that line of reasoning to be 'outdated or proven false'.


middleway wrote:Opinions change. You see it as a problem while most of the world see it as something very different ....'growth'. My current opinions and viewpoints are they are born out of training, experience, hands on contact with experts who's feel I then tried to understand, and self research. If someone were to spend 15 years with that approach your damn right their opinions should change. If I have arrived at similar opinions to you it's coincidental


It isn't about changing opinions as much as consistency of understanding and the 'evolving' vernacular with which that understanding is discussed. I've never had a problem with it because I haven't changed my online tune since the early days of cyberkwoon. Nothing new under the sun. I was just making note of the disparity. It's fine, though. 8-)


middleway wrote:And finally... This chip on your shoulder seems to be a real bug bear for you. You keep posting on threads i start with snide remarks about the past


You're mistaken. I've posted comments in half a dozen of your threads since the beginning of RSF and not one of those posts has anything even close to a 'snide remark' about the past. You have me confused with a projection of someone else.


middleway wrote:Your genuinely wasting your energy and time being pissed off

I didn't spend 5 hours writing, deleting, reposting and editing this reply. You have me confused with someone else again.
Appeals to authority is why we can't have nice things
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby middleway on Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:07 am

I could respond to the points directly but it will derail the thread further.

I didn't spend 5 hours writing, deleting, reposting and editing this reply. You have me confused with someone else again.


That would be a combination of Posting from a phone early in the morning, then finding the many autocorrects. Then getting to work and correcting my language to make it clear ... something you will find i do on most of my longer posts. It isnt a sign of agression, it is a sign of my mild dislexia and wanting to make sure i form my sentences correctly. But view it as you will.

This has already taken up too much of both of our time, so lets leave this as it is and return the thread.

I wish you all the best with your training and thanks for your earlier contribution to the thread with your viewpoint.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4558
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:06 am

The strategy is pretty simple really..

Get them to do something, commit to something, if they haven't done so already.. (someone's trying to fight/attack you presumably..)
Use that something to your advantage in some way shape or form, to shape a better outcome for yourself.

The tactics, actions and so forth of this over arching strategy can be myriad, but strategy can only do or be so many things. There are only so many ways how to be succesful in confrontations in the strategic sense.

It's just basically a counter attacking style strategically speaking, a more emphasised one perhaps, than most.. But many modern fighters utilise the strategy to varying degrees, like all over the place.

Regards what was said about BJJ in the OP; I would argue that dominating the opponent is not the founders style of BJJ, survival was the strategic basis. As presented in the intro of Saulo Riberos' University of B. Ju jutsu book.

What struck me the most about that is how similarly it can be viewed in comparison to Yang Lu Chans mythical 'invincibility'. Survival means not being beaten ('losing') in the end of the day. If you forget about "winning" and can survive any encounter intact you remain and are, for all intents and purposes 'invincible'.

Pretty cool eh.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
George

set your sights high, so high in fact, that even failure will carry with it an echo of glory
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby middleway on Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:40 am

Regards what was said about BJJ in the OP; I would argue that dominating the opponent is not the the founders style of BJJ, survival was the strategic basis. As presented in the intro of Saulo Riberos' University of B. Ju jutsu book.


Hi George.

Perhaps, but i did say to dominate the position. This doesn't mean with strength for sure but to obtain and maintain the superior position on the opponent. Helio may have been very weak, but he was known for his positional brilliance. The Following generations like Rolls or Rickson were well known for their positional dominance and this continues to be one of the styles characteristics. Think of every Gracie in action tape, or challenge match, they almost always end with mount or back, arguably the two most Most dominant positions of the style, once there the opponent is largely helpless.

What struck me the most about that is how similarly it can be viewed in comparison to Yang Lu Chans mythical 'invincibility'. Survival means not being beaten ('losing') in the end of the day. If you forget about "winning" and can survive any encounter intact you remain and are, for all intents and purposes 'invincible'.


Very interesting perspective and one i never really thought about. lol.

thanks :)
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4558
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:24 am

We could argue about that... I guess. My argument would be that survival isn't based on dominating any position either or needn't be. But being able to survive or turn around/ escape being in the less dominant/ advantageous position being more important. It depends in what situation you find yourself in really.

Of course it's always better to be in side control, or find yourself there, than to be under it. Strategically it makes perfect sense to make that part of your tactical repertoire and or strategic goals. But surely you can see that if that is primary ('to you') then you will be less of a survivalist for it. More important or primary to Enzo's strategy, as I read it; Is first to be master of escaping or evading every bad position and or technique, than it would be to consistently master arriving in the dominant position.

Survival before any kind of dominance. Being in the better position really translates to you're 'winning' (being ahead in the game) in a sense IOW you are literally dominating your opponent via a better position; remember we're forgeting about any kind of winning where survival is concerned, winning of any kind I don't think need be a factor if working in/from the paradigm of survival..
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:38 am, edited 8 times in total.
George

set your sights high, so high in fact, that even failure will carry with it an echo of glory
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:37 am

Is first to be master of escaping or evading every bad position and or technique, than it would be to consistently master arriving in the dominant position.


Winning by avoiding the fight is the best strategy for survival. The problem in discussing tcc strategy is that (imo) the questions focus on how to attack and finish, specifically within the context of facing an opponent who trains specializes in attacking and finishing (which includes all competitive combat sports and most martial arts).

Defensive boxers like Mayweather evade until they can strike. Submission specialists escape until they get the opportunity to land a hold. Running away would work, but it wouldn't be considered winning. This is not tcc, but it might have saved his life.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FooBIlaRKl8
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 17382
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby middleway on Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:47 am

I see your point, but personally i dont like that idea as a primary strategy. I have always held a "be the hunter not the hunted" approach to things.

It is similar to the difference between the regular military unit and the elites, regulars will sit in bases, do patrols and wait for engagement, special forces will head out and hunt their enemy, as a result they are more successful in their hunts and less of them die.

More important or primary to Enzo's strategy, as I read it; Is first to be master of escaping or evading every bad position and or technique, than it would be to consistently master arriving in the dominant position.


If we are talking about the learning process of bjj then I agree with you entirely. But that process is not, IMO, the fighting strategy of the style. It is the learning method, i teach that approach infact. After all, ultimately in bjj defence and attack are combined, the best exponents I have rolled with have absolutely no separation between these concepts, they can dominate the position of side control ... from the bottom! Lol

Survival is a concept that sometimes contains winning sometimes doesnt. I will grant you that but winning is also the absolute key to survival in many scenarios. I think when talking about fighting strategy winning moves to the forefront. If talking about survival stragegy then no fighting strategy may be needed... preferably it isnt. Hand over your wallet, run (if your a good runner), verbal deescalation etc. These would encompass survival, but I wouldn't class them as fighting strategies.

Thanks
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4558
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:25 am

I guess for me, for my sensibilities; "position before submission" or "positional dominance of an opponenet" fits under tactics better than strategy. Strategy is "the what" of what I want to do, tactics are the "the how" I'm going to do what I want to do: trying to put my thinking on that in a nutshell..

You can play any way you like in BJJ; you can have aggressive strategy for example or a more passive countering one and still both use the same tactic mentioned above. But differing strategies or approaches are in play in that example. In comparison to TCC you would find it difficult in any event to make a good case for having an aggresive pro active style and calling it TCC; the way the culture around it is.

I think I just wanted to make the point that a more survivalist approach in terms of style in BJJ seems to be more in tune with the, perhaps, stricter dictums of TCC ideology. Which naturally carry over to its principles and strategy.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:00 am, edited 5 times in total.
George

set your sights high, so high in fact, that even failure will carry with it an echo of glory
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2596
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby Steve James on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:11 am

There's an old kali story about a famous dog-fighting champion. So, a guy gets tempted into watching a dog fight. As he watches people bring their animals in, he notices one limping in on three legs with the fourth leg hanging uselessly above the ground. He notes that people are placing bets on that dog. So he asks, "Are they crazy, that dog is crippled." One of the people laughs and says, "Him, he's the champ." Puzzled, he asks why, and the guy says, "The other dogs always latch onto his bad leg. Then he bites their throats out."
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 17382
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby BruceP on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:30 pm

D_Glenn wrote: Is this about the old, ‘Skipping through the woods is equal to/ not equal to real tai chi’ debate, from roughly 2003?



Holy retro, D_Glenn!

Yeah, that was just one of the EF 'debates' I alluded to earlier. It only took Graham six years to catch on.

As for relevance to this discussion, it's totally relevant to Tai Chi Fighting Strategy.

Teng-no (skipping) is a principle, method and strategy. It's an overarching idea, much like Shan-chan, for developing body, mind and method.

For anyone who cares to know, a very good discussion started by I-Mon in 2009 where the idea is finally given its due (it really takes off when johnrieber chimes in):

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 3b#p118655

Good post by D_Glenn on the last page as well
Appeals to authority is why we can't have nice things
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby Yeung on Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:56 am

D_Glenn wrote:Wouldn’t that be ‘leading into emptiness’?
Leading is not quite the right translation though.
I thought of something- when you’re playing/ teasing a cat with some toy on the end of the string, at first you let him tap it, feel it, he will casually chase it a little bit, but then you can see that he’s getting frustrated and that he’s building/ gathering up energy to make a fast lunge at it. If your timing is right then he totally comes up empty.

That’s kind of what leading into emptiness is. Only in a real assault there might not be any tapping, just the lunge, which is why it’s considered a high level/ advanced strategy to employ.

.

Entice into emptiness!

Strategy 32 "空城计" - Empty fort. (Mental trap, empty a fort to make enemy think it is filled with traps.)
When the enemy is superior in numbers and your situation is such that you expect to be overrun at any moment, then drop all pretence of military preparedness and act casually. Unless the enemy has an accurate description of your situation this unusual behavior will arouse suspicions. With luck he will be dissuaded from attacking.
Yeung
Huajing
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:58 am

windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I feel like I'm rambling and repeating myself at this point.


Illustrates some of the points you mentioned
demos transitions from basic push hands to usage showing different strategies for entering
and bridging commonly found in taiji....applied.


https://youtu.be/bYFcUxep9TE

In this English-subtitled teaching video, Guo Shifu explains and demonstrates several important fighting concepts, namely,
1. hu zhong xin - guarding the centre
2. da qian - attacking the beginning,
3. wen jin - asking for force,
4. bi shi ji xü - avoiding the substantial and attacking the empty,
5. fa jin - generating power,
and
6. gun dong - rolling


He also mentions da kong - attacking the empty. :D (I mean I guess that's part of bi shi ji xü but whatever)

I really like Gou Sifu and what he has to say. I'm actually focusing somewhat on wen jin in freestyle push hands at the moment. Seemingly infinite variations in timing there with finite results.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1260
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Tai Chi Fighting Strategy

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:31 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I feel like I'm rambling and repeating myself at this point.


Illustrates some of the points you mentioned
demos transitions from basic push hands to usage showing different strategies for entering
and bridging commonly found in taiji....applied.


https://youtu.be/bYFcUxep9TE

In this English-subtitled teaching video, Guo Shifu explains and demonstrates several important fighting concepts, namely,
1. hu zhong xin - guarding the centre
2. da qian - attacking the beginning,
3. wen jin - asking for force,
4. bi shi ji xü - avoiding the substantial and attacking the empty,
5. fa jin - generating power,
and
6. gun dong - rolling


He also mentions da kong - attacking the empty. :D (I mean I guess that's part of bi shi ji xü but whatever)


Excerpt from "Shi Style Baguazhang Oral Traditions: The 48 Skill Method:"
Shi Jidong wrote:45. Bi Shi Ji Xu - Avoid the Enemy's Strength, Strike at his Weakness: When the enemy punches at your face, Take the lower way and instantly open up. Take him by surprise, unprepared for the attack. Avoid his strength and attack his weak points, victory comes.

Can anyone explain/give examples of "bi shi ji xü?"

oragami_itto wrote:I really like Gou Sifu and what he has to say. I'm actually focusing somewhat on wen jin in freestyle push hands at the moment. Seemingly infinite variations in timing there with finite results.

Can you explain/give examples of different timings of "wen jin" with "results."
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1435
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest