None effective CMA technique

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None effective CMA technique

Postby johnwang on Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:48 pm

When Adam Hsu taught me the 7 star preying mantis of the following move, I asked him, "Can you use this move to kill your opponent?" He was not happy about my question. But I had to ask from the bottom of my heart. IMO, this kind of moves that make CMA has bad reputation.

I have never seen people who can use the back of his hook hand to hurt his opponent. Why does anybody even bother to train it?

Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXDd99 ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePJrPGkqb8U
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:55 pm

So where did you look for the effectiveness of the how to kill someone with the back of a hooked hand technique. At the kill only rule Kumite tournament ?.........From the bottom of my heart :)
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:27 pm

So if I'm tracking this argument correctly here...

You're saying that a technique isn't effective unless it's lethal?
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:05 pm

A long time ago i read somewhere . That during Japan’s occupation of Korea that Japanese soldiers/Karatekas tried out the “effectiveness”of different strikes and kicks on captured tied up Koreans, much like how they also tried cutting with the sword.....Horrible, and hopefully not a practice that’s going on in today’s world ?
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:40 pm

johnwang wrote:
Your thought?



It depends if they also train the hand to support its usage.
watched Mike, a hop gar teacher brake a cinder block with the back of his hand
just by dropping it on it. http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane

The training back then was very hard on the body....


If they practice iron hand, or burning palm along with other conditioning it might make it an effective tool to use.
teacher Brendan Lai, once mentioned that he didn't like to train people in iron palm as he felt it damaged the hand too much...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6--naMqgUrc&t=119s


used to do a lot of push ups on the back of the hands to condition them.
along with poking and make holes in banana trees with my fingers thinking I was conditioning them. Probably not a good idea in long run. :P
now a little older I sometimes wonder about the things done as a younger person...in the name of conditioning
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:49 pm

Trick wrote:A long time ago i read somewhere . That during Japan’s occupation of Korea that Japanese soldiers/Karatekas tried out the “effectiveness”of different strikes and kicks on captured tied up Koreans, much like how they also tried cutting with the sword.....Horrible, and hopefully not a practice that’s going on in today’s world ?


A mantis teach long ago in Korea,

he told me they would practice on pigs, killing them in the process to
see the effectiveness of different hands used.

During the Korean war he along with most other young men from his home town were recruited to fight for the south as guerilla fighters not actually associated with the formal army. After the war he was able to relocate to the south and has not seen his family since then.
Shifu Park Chil Sung worked for some time after the war for the South Korean equivalent of the American CIA, training in hand to hand combat.

http://www.oocities.org/mantiscave/parkchil.htm
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby johnwang on Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:32 pm

oragami_itto wrote:So if I'm tracking this argument correctly here...

You're saying that a technique isn't effective unless it's lethal?

If you can knock your opponent out in one strike, your opponent will have no chance to hurt you after that. We all try to develop some dependable finish moves through our life time.

When you

- were young, you can still depend on your endurance.
- get older, you have to end your problem quickly.

So this issue is more important for the older people.

Am I the only person in RSF who feels this way?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby califax on Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:59 pm

johnwang wrote:When Adam Hsu taught me the 7 star preying mantis of the following move, I asked him, "Can you use this move to kill your opponent?" [...]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXDd99 ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePJrPGkqb8U


Yes, when you have at least one blade. It seems pretty obvious to me that this move comes from weapons training.
"To establish bridge, I would Kai Shi with my Shou to his Zhou making sure I have rooted my Jiao in my Bu. Of Then with 100% Yi, I peng or Kou.
Or, for the 98% of MAists without their heads up their arse.....So, we clinch."
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:03 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:So if I'm tracking this argument correctly here...

You're saying that a technique isn't effective unless it's lethal?

If you can knock your opponent out in one strike, your opponent will have no chance to hurt you after that. We all try to develop some dependable finish moves through our life time.

When you

- were young, you can still depend on your endurance.
- get older, you have to end your problem quickly.

So this issue is more important for the older people.

Am I the only person in RSF who feels this way?

I assume you’re not out on a killing spree quest in search for your perfect finish move, as one could mistakenly think reading the OP 8-) ? About young and old I guess no matter the age a sane person would wish to be able to deal with an confrontation with as little effort as possible.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:20 am

John, I use the back of my wrists all the time. It can deal a lot of damage without fear of injury. One way to use it is like a 摆拳. Try it on a heavy bag and you'll see. :)

Of course I agree with you that I want my techniques to be as effective as possible. My Master uses the technique in your first video a fair bit. It works for him! For me, I don't particularly like the angle of the wrist for that one - probably because I'm tall.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:15 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:So if I'm tracking this argument correctly here...

You're saying that a technique isn't effective unless it's lethal?

If you can knock your opponent out in one strike, your opponent will have no chance to hurt you after that. We all try to develop some dependable finish moves through our life time.

When you

- were young, you can still depend on your endurance.
- get older, you have to end your problem quickly.

So this issue is more important for the older people.

Am I the only person in RSF who feels this way?


Well knockout isn't killing.

The goal in an encounter is context specific. You can't just go knocking people out or killing them willy nilly every time you have a conflict.

The goals of my training, in priority order:

1. Avoid conflict
2. Escape conflict
3. End conflict

So number 3, knockout or death may be possible or desirable, but maybe it's someone you care about (or that could sue you) having a psychological problem and you want to restrain them. In most every case I agree that you want to end things as quickly as possible, one way or another. It gets harder to stay safe the longer the conflict lasts.

Let's be perfectly honest. We live in the age of the gun. No matter how much you want to put into honing your human weapon, some shithead with a gun and zero training can take you out without a whole lot of effort. The only sensible reason to train unless you're into the whole fighting game or a security professional is cultivation. Not that there isn't good reason to keep effective techniques in the training, to keep it realistic and in case god forbid you do wind up in a hand to hand combat situation you don't want your training to do more harm than good, but that there is a whole spectrum of results beyond kill or knock out, control holds, submissions/joint destructions, knockdowns, etc.

I'll close with this reminder that the most common reason for street fighting is dominance. Not self defense. Just two guys trying to prove who's got the bigger sack. My self-cultivation helps me avoid the need for that validation and so directly and actively does a lot to accomplish number 1 and 2. I like to think, and experience has shown, that it also gives me an edge over most people when it comes to number 3.

Haven't knocked anybody out or killed anybody yet, though, so I'm probably doing something wrong.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:19 am

oragami_itto wrote:

The goals of my training, in priority order:

1. Avoid conflict
2. Escape conflict
3. End conflict

.


wise words...

Let's be perfectly honest. We live in the age of the gun. No matter how much you want to put into honing your human weapon, some shithead with a gun and zero training can take you out without a whole lot of effort.


speaking of guns...and martial arts

some past history, a famous kung fu master that some may remember..

I am also getting a fragmented story from a certain group of people, that they hired a 14 year old to show up at his door, and fired four shots from a .22 caliber pistol. someone i know met the man since he has been released. how the entire trial process was carried out, etc. is not something i know about. what i know of the assassination is in line with what "once ronin" says it to be. that's the only account i've ever heard of in regards to your grandfathers death.


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/arc ... -1314.html
Image
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/sho ... c9ead92623


Training consisted of forms, meditation, and iron robe. I punched rock filled bags. I beat my body with a bundle of chopsticks. I kicked trees until my legs were bruised and bleeding. We would apply some of Law Wei Jong's herbs, and I would be kicking trees the next day.

Ng Yim Ming would teach me a move, then send me out in the streets to fight.
If I lost I would have to train twice as hard, so I learned not to lose.
I would join a kung fu school only to defeat it's teacher, then collect twice my money back to leave.

Ng Yim Ming said Hop Gar was a fighting art and must be learned by fighting.

http://www.hopgar.com/History/history.html

In 1970, Ng Yim Ming left Hong Kong to start a business in San Francisco. I remained in Hong Kong to run the school until I could get a visa from the United States. Ng Yim Ming had a school in San Francisco for about a year and a half. In 1972 he was shot and killed.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:39 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:27 am

To know the art is to understand the art, I often get the feeling that by not really making the effort to know the art, you never actually learned the art. The understanding is the learning. Such a question to s clearly looking past the art, and moving on with a lack of understanding. It is the bane of authentic TCMA.
The point . is absolute
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby GrahamB on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:59 am

John -

We have a strike like that in our Choy Lee Fut form. Last time I went to see my teacher he said that it could possibly work, but it's not a great technique. A Tiger throat grab (and pull) was a better martial technique at that point, so after about 40 years he's changed the form that he practices daily himself to a technique that he thinks works better. Of course, he would still teach the 'correct' version, but he'd probably show 'his' version as well.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:34 am

I was always advised that the ways to injure, maim, or kill a human being are fairly simple and straightforward. All grappling arts, especially submission styles, depend on the fact that the body will stop working if blood or air are restricted, and that human joints bend and don't bend in relatively consistent ways. Almost anyone can be choked out. Getting into the position where he can be choked is the issue.

Of course, knocking someone unconscious with a strike works, too. But, it's because the concussion impedes blood flow. There are also other places to strike that can be effective because of pain debilitation. I.e., strikes to the solar plexus are part of all striking arts. However, it's the target that's universal. As Graham said, the target could be the throat or elsewhere.

One could ask whether western boxing has "a" killer technique. Boxers have been killed in the ring from strikes. So, does tcc have strikes? Sure. Does it have submission techniques? Well, yeah, but it's usually all done standing. If someone wanted to know how a particular school or individual uses the form, one would have to stud with them. It's granted that not all would.

Anyway, I think connecting killing with tcc is misguided. People use weapons to kill. Put a knife is a tcc guy's hand, and it's still capable of doing whatever a knife can do.;)
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