None effective CMA technique

[marvin8]

So if I'm tracking this argument correctly here...

You're saying that a technique isn't effective unless it's lethal?

If you can knock your opponent out in one strike, your opponent will have no chance to hurt you after that. We all try to develop some dependable finish moves through our life time.

When you

- were young, you can still depend on your endurance.
- get older, you have to end your problem quickly.

So this issue is more important for the older people.

Am I the only person in RSF who feels this way?

I don't believe you answered oragami_itto's question with a yes or no and explanation.

It was explained in the second video of the OP that the back hand can be used as an asking hand to draw reaction from the opponent.

Do you feel all punches should be fully committed and "knock your opponent out?"

[Bao]

If you can knock your opponent out in one strike, your opponent will have no chance to hurt you after that. We all try to develop some dependable finish moves through our life time.

But you speak about movements and techniques. If you have a good body method and understand timing you should be able to have good knockout power in most type of strikes. Why then bothering about if this or that movement can kill or have knockout power? Shouldn't your confidence be in your fist instead of in forms or postures?

[johnwang]

Do you feel all punches should be fully committed and "knock your opponent out?"

I believe all

- sword swing should have cutting power.
- punches should have knock down power.

[johnwang]

The goals of my training, in priority order:

1. Avoid conflict
2. Escape conflict
3. End conflict.

Self defense is more than just to defend yourself. Self-defense includes to protect your family members, friends, people on the street, help the weaker to fight against the stronger, ...

When someone attacks your wife, you can't avoid, escape, ...

[marvin8]

Do you feel all punches should be fully committed and "knock your opponent out?"

I believe all

- sword swing should have cutting power.
- punches should have knock down power.

So, you don't believe in asking hand (in OP video) or feints? All punches should have same power and speed?

[C.J.W.]

When Adam Hsu taught me the 7 star preying mantis of the following move, I asked him, "Can you use this move to kill your opponent?" He was not happy about my question. But I had to ask from the bottom of my heart. IMO, this kind of moves that make CMA has bad reputation.

I have never seen people who can use the back of his hook hand to hurt his opponent. Why does anybody even bother to train it?

Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXDd99 ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePJrPGkqb8U

My thoughts:

1. The effectiveness of a technique mostly depends on the person applying it as opposed to the technique itself.

2. The hook hand/ back of the wrist hand shape isn't just used for striking in Praying Mantis. For instance, the groin strike in the second clip is actually supposed to be a classic move that employs the "fake low and hit high" strategy of PM fighting. It is not really meant to finish the opponent off in one shot, but more as a feint or setup to more devastating follow-up techniques and "finishing moves" (borrowing your terminology). That's why if you look at it simply as a striking technique, it may not be enough to cause serious damage.

3. The back of the wrist is a more solid striking surface than the knuckles. I once met a southern Shaolin stylist who focused on conditioning the back of his right wrist and could use it to break boards, bricks, and cinder blocks.

[johnwang]

So, you don't believe in asking hand (in OP video) or feints? All punches should have same power and speed?

You can use set up to execute your finish move. But you still need to depend on finish moves to end the fight (assume you are not avoid, escape, ...).

- The finish moves are your generals.
- The set up moves are your soldiers.

The generals are your "door guarding" skill.

[johnwang]

But you speak about movements and techniques. If you have a good body method and understand timing you should be able to have good knockout power in most type of strikes. Why then bothering about if this or that movement can kill or have knockout power? Shouldn't your confidence be in your fist instead of in forms or postures?

I try not to depend on theory and I try not to assume. I use my fist, palm edge to hit on heavy bag. I don't use the back of my hook hand to do that. If I have never used the back of my hook hand to knock down any opponent, I won't count it as my "door guarding" move.

[Steve James]

I think that a "hook hand" is probably meant to be used as a hook is used. A hook can be used to strike (and I don't mean a boxer's "hook"). I don't think the idea is the same in tcc --but, that doesn't mean that someone can't or doesn't use it as a strike.

I'm not sure that using the hook hand used in tcc's Single Whip would be the most effective way to strike. I.e., it's not written in stone that one has to leave the hand in that shape, if we're just trying to strike. It'd be interesting to see a striking application that requires the hand to be in the hooked position --and couldn't be a palm, leopard fist, phoenix fist, finger, or just a closed fist.

[Ron Panunto]

It's good for attacking the throat, which can be lethal.

[johnwang]

If you have

- used move A to knock down many opponents, you believe move A is an effective move.
- never used move A to knock down many opponents, you believe move A is not an effective move (at least to you).

[.Q.]

I don't personally feel confident using hook hands for striking but maybe it isn't used as-is. One of the PM standing post postures I learned from 8-step mantis has you holding the hands in a mantis hook, specifically with thumb, index and middle fingers straight. When you do this properly it works the forearm muscles way more and I believe that's what you're actually training (for the standing posture). I have no idea if that's the point of the form in the first video, but perhaps there's a non-obvious reason for doing it. It's best to ask the person why they're doing such a thing before discounting it.
Actually a reasonable use is to not use the hook as a strike but as part of a move to open the door from the inside. Once inside it transitions better into a slap than a fist would.

[Steve James]

It's good for attacking the throat, which can be lethal.

Jmo, but if you mean hooking the throat, I agree. If you mean striking the throat, a chop seems more efficient. Sure, it's possible to use it as a thrust, but a spear hand seems more appropriate for a small target.

Once inside it transitions better into a slap than a fist would.

The idea that the hooked position can be part of a transition, instead of an end point is also a good one to hold onto.

[windwalker]

I try not to depend on theory and I try not to assume. I use my fist, palm edge to hit on heavy bag. I don't use the back of my hook hand to do that. If I have never used the back of my hook hand to knock down any opponent, I won't count it as my "door guarding" move.

We trained so that anything hit was damaged with any part of the hand...
I have knots on the back of my hands from hitting things....the first one from accidentally being blocked by an elbow which I followed up with training to insure that it would not be a weakness. As you mention nothing should be left to theory....very much agree with this line of thought.

Even after all these yrs I still have calluses on the first joint after the fist knuckle on all fingers from training long ago. This was trained as raking
type of strike...typically used with what we called an over hand.

"Going through another door one would enter into the main training room with a large Army duffel bag filled with sand hanging by a chain. The bag must have weighed three hundred pounds and was hard as a rock.

Touching it I wondered what one would do with such a bag the canvas was very course and as I would find out very unforgiving if one hit off center. Blood stains left by those who had, later I would add my own…

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/06/23/mike-staples/

In mantis there are equally hard types of training as with any CMA that is used for fighting . Whether this is healthy in the long run is debatable,
something I sometimes wonder about now...

The training a little different back then was designed to weed out those who couldn't get it or make it through it.

The objective was different not based so much on a health aspect.

[marvin8]

This whipping fist uses the edge of the hand, rather than back. But, here is how it's used.

Randy Brown Mantis Boxer
Published on Apr 30, 2018

The Whipping Fist is not a power punch like a right cross, a scraping fist, or Hook Punch, but it is quite effective for it's intended use. Which is...? Attacking the groin. That is it's only target. Try to use it any other way, and you'll find it quite anemic.

The punch swivels from the elbow and comes up underneath the opponents guard. It is difficult to see, and block. The key to using the Whipping Fist effectively, is keeping the arm relaxed, and using speed rather than trying to add strength.

It's an excellent addition to a striking combination that focuses on Changing Levels and Varying Targets.

Here are some tips along with pads drills, and bag drills later in the video for practicing the scraping fist on your own, or with a partner.

1:03 - Technique
2:55 - Pad Drills for Focus Mitt, Thai Pad training
4:37 - Bag Drills for Punching Bags:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghqHznD71iA