the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

When the hands are hooked, the wrist seems to be quite tough and hard, good for striking! Some people toughen it more as well (by hitting things, etc.).

In bagua, Ma Gui was famous for wrist strikes (腕打), too; some bagua schools still teach them (training methods, techniques). But some bagua schools don't use them at all.

Here are the moves that I'm talking about. I believe the 1st and 2nd moves are foot sweep and the 3rd move is strike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moEZ137 ... e=youtu.be

johnwang wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:The goals of my training, in priority order:

1. Avoid conflict
2. Escape conflict
3. End conflict.

Self defense is more than just to defend yourself. Self-defense includes to protect your family members, friends, people on the street, help the weaker to fight against the stronger, ...

When someone attacks your wife, you can't avoid, escape, ...

Sure, the last actual street fight I got into because somebody threatened a teen age girl that lived in my house.

I didn't throw a single punch, though. I just blocked and deflected everything, got him in a head lock and gave him a noogie, mounted him and flicked his face a little, he tried to buck me into a concrete pillar so I gently put his head against it, etc. It took a little longer than knocking him out but it definitely took the fight out of him to feel how powerless he was in comparison. He never threatened anybody in my house again after that.

Were my techniques effective?

The conflict here was not the fight itself. The fight was to end the conflict. The three priorities remain.

The person was my neighbor, not the sharpest tool in the shed. If I'd simply knocked him out, he'd want revenge and I'd never have been able to trust him. Reminding him who I was and what I could do if I wanted was enough to end the beef and have him watch his mouth in the future where my girlfriend's daughter was concerned. Still didn't trust him but he minded his manners.

From southern mantis against a left cross, hook the incoming punch with the inside of the hook hand, ride it down, then spring up with the outside of the hook hand to hit the throat. From Chen taiji against a left hand to right hand grab, smack down with your left hand to release the grab and hit the throat with the outside of the hook hand. Both of these techniques are right out of the respective styles' forms. The trachea tube is held open by fragile circular bones that can easily be broken, leading to suffocation of opponent.

edededed wrote:When the hands are hooked, the wrist seems to be quite tough and hard, good for striking! Some people toughen it more as well (by hitting things, etc.).

In bagua, Ma Gui was famous for wrist strikes (腕打), too; some bagua schools still teach them (training methods, techniques). But some bagua schools don't use them at all.

The wrist striking required a lot of stretching and conditioning before it was/is possible to use in the manner that Ma Gui used it. First is that the hook needs to be be able to bend more than 90 degrees when looking at the angle of the palm to forearm. Then a lot of time spent in a push up plank position where weight is only on the wrist bones and tips of the forearm bones. I’ve seen and felt first hand the potential of this and it is potentially devastating. Some of the more common usage doesn’t require that level of conditioning and doesn’t have the same potential and relies more on hitting points, like zhangmen.

Well, like I said, if striking the throat is the goal, what one strikes it with is a question of opportunity. My primary point about the hooked hand is that it's meant to hook. I think it's possible to train any body part to accomplish the goal.

At any rate, I'm not so clear as to which part of the hooked hand everyone is proposing to use for the strike. I.e., is it the fingertips, the second knuckle, the third knuckle, the wrist, or the sides. For ex., the mantis guy in the video used what seemed like the top of the hand to attack the opponent's groin from below. Maybe some videos of different approaches would lead to more ideas.

螳螂刁手 (hooking hand) is used to catch your opponent's punching arm. If you strike back without any changing of your hand shape (for speed), you will hit with the back of your hook. IMO, it's a trade off between speed and power.

When you trade power for speed, some knock down power will be lost.

If you strike back without any changing of your hand shape (for speed), you will hit with the back of your hook.

Well, if I'm hooking the opponent's forward arm while he's punching, I'd have to keep my hand position in order to strike. However, the time difference between changing from a hook to any other hand position is irrelevant, ime. For me, the hook is part of the defense; how the hand is used to strike is a separate issue --and I have no doubt that it can. I'm just saying that there's no requirement for any particular hand position (used in the tcc forms I know). The palm in BKTS can just as easily be a fist. Sure, it could be a hook hand, but I wouldn't say that it's more effective (especially using the wrist) than other hand positions. I don't think it's faster than a spearing hand or a chop. But, that's just me.

This clip shows some application of 刁手 (hooking hand). I still don't think it has any knock down power.

Sometime I just find out that I may have spent so much valuable training time on someone that's not very useful. If I can relive my life again, I will not waste my time on things like this.

https://v.qq.com/x/page/k0531ia7m7u.html?

Well, the final blow looks more like a type of backhand. Nothing essentially bad or wrong, it's possible to keep the hands continuously in the hooked position and do anything one can do with the fist. Experimenting, I find that I could keep my hand in the fist shape and still bend my wrist (though, not at or past 90 degrees). So, I'd have to deliberately choose to do that.

A strike with the back of the wrist into the eye socket. Might not kill him but would make him think twice about getting back up.

A strike with the back of the wrist into the eye socket. Might not kill him but would make him think twice about getting back up.

most cold-blooded murders and "self defense" killings aren't done by trained martial arts teachers or hobbyists or pros, although the police killing minorities out of "self defense" are obviously trained in some way.

johnwang wrote:This clip shows some application of 刁手 (hooking hand). I still don't think it has any knock down power.

Sometime I just find out that I may have spent so much valuable training time on someone that's not very useful. If I can relive my life again, I will not waste my time on things like this.

https://v.qq.com/x/page/k0531ia7m7u.html?

Met James a long time ago 8-steps mantis.

He demos some revers hook hand usage...If you compare the clips, his body is linked up to his movement, making
each moment quite strong while still being very flexible in use.

His ability to cover distance was quite amazing almost like
he was moving on ice.

Not a fan of mantis have worked with it for awhile....met some noted teachers in my quest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yau24iA_mZk

everything wrote:most cold-blooded murders and "self defense" killings aren't done by trained martial arts teachers or hobbyists or pros, although the police killing minorities out of "self defense" are obviously trained in some way.

oragami_itto wrote: You can't just go knocking people out or killing them willy nilly every time you have a conflict.

All my life, I try to develop some CMA ability that I can use it to kill, It doesn't mean that I'll use it when it's not necessary. If someone attacks me, I can block, dodge, move around, and I have confidence that it's not that easy for my opponent to hurt me. But if someone attacks my family members, I don't mind to hurt that person by using my CMA skill. "Be able to do and don't want to do" is different from "want to do but cannot do it".

If I do this to my opponent, I don't intend to make friend with him afterward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvwyyj3 ... e=youtu.be