None effective CMA technique

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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby edededed on Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:24 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
edededed wrote:When the hands are hooked, the wrist seems to be quite tough and hard, good for striking! Some people toughen it more as well (by hitting things, etc.).

In bagua, Ma Gui was famous for wrist strikes (腕打), too; some bagua schools still teach them (training methods, techniques). But some bagua schools don't use them at all.

The wrist striking required a lot of stretching and conditioning before it was/is possible to use in the manner that Ma Gui used it. First is that the hook needs to be be able to bend more than 90 degrees when looking at the angle of the palm to forearm. Then a lot of time spent in a push up plank position where weight is only on the wrist bones and tips of the forearm bones. I’ve seen and felt first hand the potential of this and it is potentially devastating. Some of the more common usage doesn’t require that level of conditioning and doesn’t have the same potential and relies more on hitting points, like zhangmen.


Hi D_Glenn, long time no see, hope you are doing well. Interesting about the 90+ degree requirement, I did not know that. But yeah, there seemed to be a lot of conditioning work - more than I am willing to do... ;)
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:[
If you understand the true violence, you can then have the true peace.

How to come to understand “true”violence?


Every time that you get into a fight, you ask yourself, "Should I kill him?" If the answer is "no", you walk away. In your mind, you are not a coward. You just don't want to kill.

Except the 5 or something schoolyard fights I had as a kid I’ve only “fought” in the Dojo or at Karate tournaments. For sure fighting spirit is harnessed, but a killers spirit ? For that I guess one must be wired a different way.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:31 am

In the OP it’s speculated that techniques such as striking with the outside of a hooked hand might be giving Chinese martial arts a bad name. Then later on in the thread “honorable” mindsets/abilities such as cruelty, poisoning and killing are lifted forward. Are these mindsets going to give CMA’s a good reputation in a modern civilized society ? Are these mindsets fit to bring along into the sport arena ?....If harboring such mindsets maybe best to keep to one self otherwise bad reputation might cement even harder if going too public.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby marvin8 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:25 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:If you understand the true violence, you can then have the true peace.

How to come to understand “true”violence?

Not all crime deserve death.

If you don't have a reason to kill -> you don't have a reason to fight -> you should try to avoid that fight as much as possible.

Every time that you get into a fight, you ask yourself, "Should I kill him?" If the answer is "no", you walk away. In your mind, you are not a coward. You just don't want to kill.

He may not let you "walk away."

How do you practice "kill" techniques with a resistant training partner?

Trick wrote:In the OP it’s speculated that techniques such as striking with the outside of a hooked hand might be giving Chinese martial arts a bad name. Then later on in the thread “honorable” mindsets/abilities such as cruelty, poisoning and killing are lifted forward. Are these mindsets going to give CMA’s a good reputation in a modern civilized society ? Are these mindsets fit to bring along into the sport arena ?....If harboring such mindsets maybe best to keep to one self otherwise bad reputation might cement even harder if going too public.

No. Also if one uses excessive force, one might be charged with murder or manslaughter.

Excerpt from "The Martial Artist’s Guide to Civil and Criminal Liability in Physical Altercations," https://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/martia ... ility.html:
Injury Claim Coach wrote:In self-defense, the purpose of martial arts is to protect oneself or another person from an imminent threat of bodily injury or death. The martial artist must be fully aware of the consequences of intentionally or unintentionally misusing their skills. A misuse of skills can result in criminal prosecution, a civil judgment, or both.[6]

Specifically, you must understand the legal difference between a controlled, necessary and proportionate force to repel an attack, and an excessive and disproportionate force. Excessive and disproportionate use of force can make you criminally or civilly liable for any personal injuries or property damages you cause.[7][8]
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:34 am

Don't quite understand the concern.
What JW, mentioned is quite common among CMA fighting styles. Found it interesting in that, those I studied with echoed the same things for the same reasons.
With many of the practitioners belonging to gangs of the day. They studied the style to fight , not to feel the "qi" or anything else..

Some would later go on to be noted teachers.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:51 am

windwalker wrote:Don't quite understand the concern.
What JW, mentioned is quite common among CMA fighting styles.
.

Could it be because of this CMA’s violent features it doesn’t do so well in the modern fight competition arena ? 8-)
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:02 am

Might be at the subject for another thread.
I would say it has to do with whether one is learning to preserve something or whether one is learning to fight.

Most if not all CMA Styles arose out of a need. Historically that need changed.

Either one is okay. Problems can and do arise when people don't understand the nature of their training
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:31 am

in the thread “honorable” mindsets/abilities such as cruelty, poisoning and killing are lifted forward. Are these mindsets going to give CMA’s a good reputation in a modern civilized society ? Are these mindsets fit to bring along into the sport arena ?....If harboring such mindsets maybe best to keep to one self otherwise bad reputation might cement even harder if going too public.


Well... do you not want TCMA to be kept as they were originally designed? :P

One of my Tai Chi teachers stretches out the two index fingers when he performs "brush knee". His main idea for application is not a push or a palm strike, but to aim for the eyes. Most applications I learned in the beginning of my Tai chi journey had nothing to do with "sports". Most belonged to dirty or "poisonous" techniques. It was all about real life combat and self defence. Controlling and seizing and up-rooting was also meant as set-ups for mostly dirty techniques. IMO TCMA does not belong to a sports mind-set. If you limit yourself to "sport" you limit yourself to 5 or 10 percent of the possibilities of your art. It means that you will end up with a very narrow skill set that limits your way of thinking if you would end up with facing something real. Tai Chi might belong to a more gentleman approach as the whole attitude is about never doing anything "too much". I.e., poking someone in the eyes is in its nature always too much if it's not absolutely necessary and I can't really see how it could become necessary if you have a whole range of different things you could do instead. So there's a whole range from controlling and seizing to the dirty stuff. Another teacher I had said that you should first bring an opponent down to the floor and that only if he is stupid enough to get up again you can hit him. Then it's his own fault. I like this approach better, maybe because it's more civilized or maybe I like it just because I am very lazy and don't like doing much at all. ...Or maybe because I can blame his injury on himself. ;D But still, there's nothing about "sport" in this mindset.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:13 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:You seem to have had a lot of killing on your mind for a long time.

When I

- punch, I intend to destroy.
- swing my sword, I intend to cut.

I like to be honest to myself.


So simple and yet very straight forward.

google translated

Ruthlessness (Chan)



In eliminating the weeds, one has to do a conscientious job in fulfilling his duty.

In shooting a tiger one must kill it. If weeds were not cleared (properly) they would revive.

If a tiger is (only) wounded, it could bite back.

Therefore, (no matter) in fighting an elephant or a hare, a lion would use its full strength.

When the hundred parts (i.e. every part) of the body are extended or stretched (i.e. every part of the body is coordinating in action) the capacity (of a person) would then be operating in full.

That is the meaning of being careful and cautious, and would not let loose (underestimate) the enemy.
One should know that in a loose moment the force (or position) of the enemy can be revived.

Therefore, there is no greater loss than in letting loose the enemy. Only when one is careful is he not letting loose the enemy.
After not letting loose the enemy, then one can perform any extermination (of the enemy) under Heaven.

In doing so, it is called cruelty or ruthlessness.


http://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-lio ... -siu-jong/
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:40 am

Well, the reason people protected their martial techniques was because they were dangerous. That's why students were chosen carefully 1) to make sure they wouldn't misuse what they learned and 2) to protect the teacher. Why teach someone something that he could use to defeat you? Overall, the point was not what one learned, but what one would do with the learning.

So, I don't think that most people who've learned how to injure other people talks about the "how to" publicly, and I mean not to students or people that they trust. It makes no sense to do so, and any potential student could always beat someone to death with a baseball bat. It ain't rocket science, and it's better for society. (But, that gets into the whole point (Sun's) about the reason for armies.

Otoh, finding a way to subdue someone who wants to kill you without needing to kill him takes a bit of skill or luck. I just thought of Yang Luchan. In some stories about him, it's said that he practiced "red fist" before he learned Chen style. But, for some reason, I remember hearing stories about him defeating opponents without injuring them. However, that takes a lot of skill that not every one can or will have.

So, if the question is, how can a tcc person "kill" someone? The answer is "the same way any non martial artist can." It's not a matter of how, but why. It's not a matter of techniques.Though, it's true that someone who trains to injure people can do it more efficiently when unarmed.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:10 am

Bao wrote:
in the thread “honorable” mindsets/abilities such as cruelty, poisoning and killing are lifted forward. Are these mindsets going to give CMA’s a good reputation in a modern civilized society ? Are these mindsets fit to bring along into the sport arena ?....If harboring such mindsets maybe best to keep to one self otherwise bad reputation might cement even harder if going too public.


Well... do you not want TCMA to be kept as they were originally designed? :P

One of my Tai Chi teachers stretches out the two index fingers when he performs "brush knee". His main idea for application is not a push or a palm strike, but to aim for the eyes. Most applications I learned in the beginning of my Tai chi journey had nothing to do with "sports". Most belonged to dirty or "poisonous" techniques. It was all about real life combat and self defence. Controlling and seizing and up-rooting was also meant as set-ups for mostly dirty techniques. IMO TCMA does not belong to a sports mind-set. If you limit yourself to "sport" you limit yourself to 5 or 10 percent of the possibilities of your art. It means that you will end up with a very narrow skill set that limits your way of thinking if you would end up with facing something real. Tai Chi might belong to a more gentleman approach as the whole attitude is about never doing anything "too much". I.e., poking someone in the eyes is in its nature always too much if it's not absolutely necessary and I can't really see how it could become necessary if you have a whole range of different things you could do instead. So there's a whole range from controlling and seizing to the dirty stuff. Another teacher I had said that you should first bring an opponent down to the floor and that only if he is stupid enough to get up again you can hit him. Then it's his own fault. I like this approach better, maybe because it's more civilized or maybe I like it just because I am very lazy and don't like doing much at all. ...Or maybe because I can blame his injury on himself. ;D But still, there's nothing about "sport" in this mindset.

The brush knee twist step with pointy poking fingers instead of palms i must say is a low grade invention. Anyway interesting, I learned an Tongbei weapon form with those pointy “palm needles”(forgot the name of those)which had a BKTS move but still different from the TJQ move, thats a far more deadly technique I almost poked my own leg once with one of those needles 8-) But yeah for sure there are strikes within the Taiji form suggested toward vital points(and also other “dangerous” techniques), so for the blood thirsty ones there are plenty of musing to entertain the brain. As Steve say, if one really learned some “deadly” techniques or something as such, it’s not something to speak around about......The whole “it’s too deadly”for sport or for this or that talk that gives a bad reputation ....I’m guessing
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:29 am

edededed wrote:Hi D_Glenn, long time no see, hope you are doing well. Interesting about the 90+ degree requirement, I did not know that. But yeah, there seemed to be a lot of conditioning work - more than I am willing to do... ;)

I was kind of thinking along the same lines, work vs reward, but this video makes a good point https://youtu.be/NcTkXifgkIY
The progression following that would be planks with your fingertips pointing towards toes, but placing hands further and further upward and not directly under your chest. Dr. Xie was 79 years old but he could still pull his palm back to about 100 degrees, and it could go further if it was pushed. One application is when a tjq guy grabs fingers then you go into the hook hand to transform their attack, and then straight punch using just the tip of the forearm. Energetically the shocking power is vastly greater because it doesn’t have to travel out to Laogong, it’s just a straight route from Neiguan point. Scary power and totally inconceivable which makes it near impossible to defend against.

.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:03 am

D_Glenn wrote:[ https://youtu.be/NcTkXifgkIY
The progression following that would be planks with your fingertips pointing towards toes, but placing hands further and further upward and not directly under your chest. Dr. Xie was 79 years old but he could still pull his palm back to about 100 degrees, and it could go further if it was pushed. One application is when a tjq guy grabs fingers then you go into the hook hand to transform their attack, and then straight punch using just the tip of the forearm. Energetically the shocking power is vastly greater because it doesn’t have to travel out to Laogong, it’s just a straight route from Neiguan point. Scary power and totally inconceivable which makes it near impossible to defend against.

.


Interesting.

In a match long ago a guy blocked one of what are called "fist hook" used in " tibetan white crane" with an elbow. At the time it stopped what I was trying to do and left a knot on the back of the hand...It didn't go away. Used to do a lot of pushups as shown in the clip in order to produce the same effect on the other hand...kinda dumb I suppose, being a young guy it seemed to make sense, :P

Did manage to condition the other side to be like the one that got injured. Never knew it was an actual type of training although we did do a lot training and conditioning with the hands so that most if not all of the hand could be used as a striking surface with the many of what are were specialty hands of the system.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:50 pm

I’m not really sure about what you’re talking about but the conditioning and flexibility is for being able to pull the palm/ back of your hand out of the way so that it’s only the wrist/ end of the forearm that’s hitting the opponent. So it’s for strengthening the wrists. A thick (about 1/4”) layer of flesh will also develop to protect the wrist bones.
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Re: None effective CMA technique

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:20 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I’m not really sure about what you’re talking about but the conditioning and flexibility is for being able to pull the palm/ back of your hand out of the way so that it’s only the wrist/ end of the forearm that’s hitting the opponent. So it’s for strengthening the wrists. A thick (about 1/4”) layer of flesh will also develop to protect the wrist bones.


In my clumsy way, I was trying to express that I did what was shown in the clip not directly for the reasons you stated, but as a result of
some thing that happened in a match. The result is the same...just reading your posting on it.

Did a lot hand body conditioning associated with the style...not all of it healthy looking back on it.
The main priority was combat effectiveness
not for health.

Sumo, also uses the back of the wrist as a striking surface

In the end any part should be, and can be a striking surface "the body is the hand" comes to mind..
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