B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

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B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby vagabond on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:35 am

My sister has taken an interest in tcm and bagua from a more woo than martial angle recently. Then, on Saturday, she fell out of a tree she was climbing and broke a vertebrae. She's facing months of rehab and restrictions on movement, particularly bending and turning so I imagine it'll be a while before she jumps into anything, but, if anyone knows anything about the type of work Frantzis focused on or has anything to say about rehabbing spinal injuries, authors to point me towards, etc I'd be grateful to hear about it.

She's in Tucson so I know Vince Black is a resource in the area however she may be staying with family in the Seattle area while she needs help with day to day stuff so any resources in those areas would be appreciated as well.
Thanks for any help you can think of
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Peacedog on Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:29 am

Go to Vince Black and his people as soon as possible. I’ve met some truly amazing bone setters from that lineage.

I have it on good authority that BK Frantzis is a bit worse off than he let’s on. I’ve also been told that the root source of his back problems goes back to the extended standing practices he did while younger. Having seen more than one person with this issue I agree with that theory as well.
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:30 pm

I thought it was meant to be a car crash that did his back in
You would have to do some pretty bad standing to do your back in
If standing does it how much worse would moving be
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Fa Xing on Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:14 pm

Bruce Frantzis is not a medical or health practitioner, do not go to him. Please seek care with a qualified healthcare practitioner, especially in the rehabilitation of the spine.
Last edited by Fa Xing on Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Peacedog on Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:07 pm

BK claims he was standing eight to twelve hours a day for several years. While I don't know if that is true, I've known a least a couple of heavy set men who held posture for 4-6 hours per days for a couple of years and they all came away with compromised disks and a variety of spinal issues.

Maybe a light weight Chinese guy could get away with that kind of standing, but even then I'm not sure.

Movement, assuming proper body mechanics, seems to be both more natural and less damaging. I just don't think human beings are supposed to remain perfectly still for long periods of time.
Last edited by Peacedog on Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:44 pm

Standing practice for about 10 hours a day ? that’s being trapped in delusion. Even standing as “little” as four hours is not going to make anyone a superhuman or immortal or an MMA champ, or just an image of pure plain health, or whatever the goals are...
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:52 pm

Standing is movement
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Franklin on Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:08 pm

long long time ago, I met a teacher of taiji -- taoist tai chi branch from moy something something..
he told me that the taiji practice was the only thing that made his quality of life bearable..
as he was missing some inter-vertebral disks since birth...

if he missed practice for a couple days -- its almost unbearable...

and if you ask for the consensus here
they will tell you that the taoist tai chi is the most BS of them all
and bastardized beyond being recognized as taiji
and absolutely good for nothing...

but i met a guy who's life was greatly improved by it..


i think any movement done with awareness in moving and opening the targeted area is what you are probably looking for..
as for a consensus as to what that should be -- don't think you will find it..
and probably the most dangerous thing would be to follow someone (or their advice)-- when they tell you "i know what to do about that"
cause most of them will be 120% full of shit -- even if they don't know it themselves...

but i would caution to take it slow--
and then take it even slower then you think you should be taking it
especially when coming back from a serious injury
as you do not what to cause more problems by being over enthusiastic...



as for bk..
some mad speculation in this thread
I will add some more--
my friends from northern california told me that one of the car accidents was caused by a car that walks on 2 legs...
i thought this was pretty common knowledge...


as for his hours and hours of standing.. idk..
but i remember reading in one of his books
that he used to spend long periods of time
doing his standing bare foot on concrete floor...

one of my teachers used to say
that when u conduct yourself in public or demo something
most people will have no clue what you are doing.. (the 99%)
you need to worry about that 1% that will be able to tell if you are real or not...
lol


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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:47 am

From standing practice spinal corrections can come if done the right way. And doing this practice for long periods of time probably will not put the spine in any danger of injury, but probably the legs(joints, blood vessels, nerves)could be at risk from prolonged standing practice. So some four to “ten?”hours daily of such practice could be straight out unhealthy.
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Peacedog on Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:53 am

Trick,

And that’s the thing. Proper supervision is hard to come by with this kind of thing. And since we can’t observe ourselves, it can result in problems.

When I was younger I was holding individual postures for up to two hours at a time. And even then when I was in excellent physical condition it caused problems.

In my school, we break all energetic practice into four distinct blocks: lying, sitting, standing and movement. One block of practice is 15 minutes each for a total of an hour.

I can double this to 30 minutes each, but after that things inevitably seem to come with problems.
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby JessOBrien on Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:02 am

Hi all, long time no post

For spine problems, seek out a qualified medical professional. Period. As a supplement, Vince Black's Tang Shou Tao school has a lot of acupuncture and Tui Na folks, hopefully one of them can help with rehab.

I was just at Kumar's class this weekend. He's doing OK, but as someone approaching 70 years old with a ton of serious injuries over the year and majorly overweight, one can't exactly hold him up as a model of perfect health lol.

His spine chi gung training is really cool shit, each of the sets he teaches contains spine practices. Opening the Energy Gates contains a simple spine stretch that's a great start for releasing tension in the back. Heaven & Earth set is much more rigorous, it asks you to stretch and pulse the spine quite strongly. Gods in the Clouds also contains some serious spine chi gung- slow, careful and nearly imperceptible stretching and rotating of the spine to build up strength and ability to access the nerves more clearly.

In my opinion you wouldn't want to do any of this with a damaged spine, without a highly qualified teacher carefully monitoring your every move. If your spine is healthy you also want to take it slow and not force anything. It's great training but not to be hurried. It can feel amazing and help you get your spine un-stuck. But again, this is some of the most advanced chi gung that you don't want to screw around with lightly. Once your spine is back to average health, I'd start with Opening the Energy Gates Spine Stretch and see how it goes.

As for standing too much, Kumar did a ton of standing in the 1970's when he was a young martial arts nut seeking power. It was also taught in some of the Taoist training he did. In his youth he always did everything 110% and worked harder than most. He gained a lot from it and also suffered the consequences.

From my perspective his years of hardcore Karate and Judo did a lot of damage to his knees and hips, and some serious car wrecks fucked up his spine real bad. At one point some years back he seemed to be in pain with every step. Some surgery's later and he's doing better. But there's only so much you can do. For some people functioning at all in their older age is a great achievement, considering the alternative.
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby vagabond on Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:09 pm

Hi all
Thanks for the input. She's in a hospital receiving care from people in scrubs, and for all I know her surgeon wasn't even a daoist so no worries there.

I'm mostly thinking of treatment that might be complimentary, as well as honestly things to occupy her during the months of rehab, considering it's a shared interest. I might just grab two copies of 'tooth from the tigers mouth' and dive in.

Jess O'Brien, that's the stuff I was wondering about, thank you
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:56 pm

I just read an article from an Karate magazine where it mentions that quite a significant number of veteran Karatekas in the West has undergone hip and knee surgeries, while this things are almost unheard of i Japan. It was speculated on that westerners where more into the kicking part and trying out this too early in their training without the proper foundation work first established. It could very well be that way, but I think there’s more to it, for example eating and drinking habits. Overconsumption of milk products that some researchers say will actually begin to decalcify our bones when we reached adulthood could be a reason, too much protein rich food and too little vegetables especially the green ones, and a too high coffee/caffeine intake as examples. Other different lifestyle factors are probably also to be considered and if not participated in those from childhood but instead throw oneself into new body way traditions later on in life even if that is just in ones early twenties or even late teens might have an troublesome effect on the body.....just some thoughts
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby wiesiek on Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:57 am

it is b.t.w.,
but,
`cause hips are are supporting the spinal cord ,
I may clear it from judo and karate "veteran" position, :
common westerners >hips problems< not seen in asians are result different sitting positions taken from the earliest age.
Sitting on your as while in kneeling position, or better - sittin` on the arse while heels are on the same level, ;) slightly changing hips joints formation/shape,
so
we, as the chairsitting fox, can develop problems later in the life, from too much high mavashigeri...

lack of the high quality teacher/s/, and mistakes on the way are also very common, but it`s another story.
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Re: B.K. Frantzis and spinal rehab?

Postby GrahamB on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:21 am

Hi,

If you're looking for a simple spine maintenance routine from China that she can do each day then I'd go for the one that is practised by the most people, and generally well received and contains nothing that's dangerous - it probably means it's the safest and most reliable. That would be the set known as Ba Duan Jin.

Find a proper teacher for it, or there are lots of versions on YouTube.

There's a version of it in Master Lam Kam Chuen's Way of Energy book, which also introduced standing practice in a safe way.

She could follow along with this each day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07FauH ... 07oozW6H5o
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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