Switching hand - not used in UFC

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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:21 am

marvin8 wrote:I have also brought up the same questions about the rhino guard and still waiting for the promised video . . . Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

I don't compete in tournament and I don't fight in the street any more. I can't make any real fight video. The best that I can do is to apply it on my students. But you will say that my student just let me do it.

Someone asked me to put up a clip that I use head lock to tap out my opponent both stand up and on the ground. After I had made these clips, he didn't not believe that my student's tap out were real. :-\

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNybjop ... e=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJQJZ1 ... e=youtu.be

I'm not sure this clip will meet your requirement "before the arm is retracted". It's normal sparring speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUm9rIm ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:36 am

Wouldn't worry about it too much. None of the detractors put up clips of themselves doing anything.

Most of them do not even speak from their own experience.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:49 am

Mantis has a lot of trips and sweeps that are set up using a switching hand control. The timing is such that the other person doesn't understand that the hands have been switched. As with teacher Brendan Lai's demo it's a one count movement.


https://youtu.be/dA5-Q6wALTg

The link show some of the training we used to do in Korea long ago.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:11 am

johnwang wrote:
Finny wrote:Exactly - not switching. He would occasionally clear the guard with the lead hand before launching his 'casting punch' as you say. Reinforcing my point - the two-step process involved in 'switching hands' is exceedingly slow in comparison.

Agree that switch hand was designed for "clear the guard". I also agree that 1, 2 (pull guard with right, punch with left) is faster than 1, 2, 3 (pull guard with right, left hand take over, punch with right).

The only issue is when you pull guard with right (such as to pull your opponent's wrist), when you punch with left, since his elbow is free, he can bend and raise his elbow with his right arm to block your punch. In order to prevent that, you need to use your left hand to control his elbow joint. This make it a 1, 2, 3 combo instead of 1, 2 combo.

It's so important to be able to control your opponent's leading arm elbow joint. When you have that control, whether you want to punch, or throw will be up to you.



On switching handsI would theorize on as for example the 1,2,3 move is most workable against someone that reach out for a collar/lapel grab or a silly push rather than a punch. 1-deflect step in, 2- put control/unbalancing pressure against opponents upper arm slightly above elbow, 3-continue put pressure or do something decisive.............
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:47 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I have also brought up the same questions about the rhino guard and still waiting for the promised video . . . Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

I don't compete in tournament and I don't fight in the street any more. I can't make any real fight video. The best that I can do is to apply it on my students. But you will say that my student just let me do it.

I'm not sure this clip will meet your requirement "before the arm is retracted". It's normal sparring speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUm9rIm1auo

I did not ask for a tournament, street fight or sparring video (see previous thread below).

No. At :07, the student does not retract his punch and leaves both arms extended, while you throw him.

You asked and I agreed to define normal speed as the retracted punch thrown by your student in the "Rhino 2" video. Simply have the other student, blocking, do an entry and throw in between one of the punches in "Rhino 2."

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 1&start=30:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I am only asking to see a "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with a feeder moving, punching at normal speed and retracting the punch...

What speed is "normal" speed?

- committed punch?
- fake punch?

A committed punch is different from a fake punch. You can't pull back your committed punch that fast. When you throw a fake punch, your body is not moving forward. When you throw a committed punch, your body will move forward.

At this moment, I only have training clip. I don't have fighting clip. I'm afraid no matter what training clip that I may put up, you may always say, that guy didn't punch and pull back fast enough.

Is this "normal" speed to you? Does he pull back his punch fast enough?


I am not asking for a "fighting clip." It can be a demo or training clip, just more realistic with retraction of the punch.

Yes. These feeder punches and pull backs are "fast enough/at normal speed." For example the first punch, the left jab, is at normal speed.


Simply replace the speed of the right jab in the "Rhino Guard - Head Lock - Diagonal Cut" video with the speed of that first left jab and pull back in "rhino 2. (The right jab is not retracted here):

https://www.youtube.com/Bawatch?v=c0mOM6QBpxA

Adding movement makes it a little more realistic, as in this Bas video @ 1:01:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1QKpq4Gf3U
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby origami_itto on Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:22 am

Imho, you're more likely to see timing and setups that favor the switching hand in ground and pound type situations. Same side blocks and strikes are stronger there due to angles and immobility. Using the opponents block to capture the blocking hand and pull it out of the way allows free reign.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:51 pm

Trick wrote:On switching handsI would theorize on as for example the 1,2,3 move is most workable against someone that reach out for a collar/lapel grab or a silly push rather than a punch. 1-deflect step in, 2- put control/unbalancing pressure against opponents upper arm slightly above elbow, 3-continue put pressure or do something decisive.............

What do you do when your opponent has boxing guard?

- You throw a fake punch on the right side of his right arm.
- When your right arm and his right arm make contact, you use right hand to pull his right arm down.
- You use left hand to push his right elbow joint to his left to jam his back arm.
- You can then use your free right arm to do your thing.

It's a very logical way to open your opponent's boxing guard.

Image

Your right initial attack can function as a spear with a hook. A CMA punch can be a punch followed by a pull.

Image
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:33 pm

Another thing that people don't understand is that it is not necessary to wait for your opponent to punch you. In the below video at 01:04 and 04:28 I didn't wait for my opponent and was already moving and ready to intercept his punches OR I was threatening him so that he had to deal with my hands first and bought right into my trap. Trapping should only be for a split second or a skilled opponent can counter-trap you or use Qinna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb94tMqpn84&t=420s
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:38 pm

windwalker wrote:Mantis has a lot of trips and sweeps that are set up using a switching hand control. The timing is such that the other person doesn't understand that the hands have been switched. As with teacher Brendan Lai's demo it's a one count movement.


https://youtu.be/dA5-Q6wALTg

The link show some of the training we used to do in Korea long ago.

Exactly. It's not that easy to tell what's going on - especially if your opponent has never seen it before. I really liked what I saw in that video. That's how real trapping looks in action - without gloves on. When wearing gloves one's hands are slower, but so are theirs.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:48 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:it is not necessary to wait for your opponent to punch you.

Agree! The switching hand is designed to be used in offense and not to be used in defense. In defense, there are many other moves that are better (such as a toe push kick to the belly).
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:47 pm

Actually, I find it equally effective for defence, but your kick works too.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:19 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
windwalker wrote:Mantis has a lot of trips and sweeps that are set up using a switching hand control. The timing is such that the other person doesn't understand that the hands have been switched. As with teacher Brendan Lai's demo it's a one count movement.


https://youtu.be/dA5-Q6wALTg

The link show some of the training we used to do in Korea long ago.

Exactly. It's not that easy to tell what's going on - especially if your opponent has never seen it before. I really liked what I saw in that video. That's how real trapping looks in action - without gloves on. When wearing gloves one's hands are slower, but so are theirs.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb94tMqpn84&t=420s

Your clip posted, reminds me of long arm, ;) but the foot work is very different.
Gloves are good for practicing and developing, allowing one to get hit,
and hit with out being damaged to much in the process. :P


Image

Some of my students practicing with what we call “Tsang-Lu” 蒼 鷺
16oz gloves / short and long en-guard positions.

Based from hop gar/taiji/ doesn't use the same types of strategies as mentioned, like hop gar, it finds and exploits the empty spaces,
bypassing the others guard, many things practice go into making this work, and doable. In many aspects its similar to boxing.


Its been awhile since I've practiced n-mantis... never really adapted to it "inside".
maybe because my first CMA style was "tibetan white crane"

Image

http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane


As to why the switching hand strategy is not used in the UFC.
I would look at assumptions made, foot work, base styles, back ground of fighters,
and how the fighters put together their own unique fighting styles.

CMA places a lot of emphasis on the method, stressing the style over the person feeling
that the "style" or method used gives one the advantage.

Western combative sports such as UFC tend to place the emphasis on the fighter. Most of the tools sets they use are very similar
which is not really true for CMA styles if one compares them...

Many of threads here talk about the differences and those thought to be the best illustrative of them. The focus is different.

Quick fight street /self defense , vs long as in most combat sportive matches..different assumptions, different training.

Having practiced with teacher Brendan Lais, group long ago 7*... a lot things that appear to be done in multiple counts are actually felt and used
as 1 count. One practiced to the point of making it so. Mantis styles are somewhat unique in this aspect IMO....with accompanying theories and training methods to go with it.

In JW clip although it may seem like there would be time to react to it,
in real time it would be hard unless one was aware of these types of combos.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:35 am

Those are some very good observations. :)
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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby GrahamB on Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:55 am

"sports such as UFC"

:D

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Re: Switching hand - not used in UFC

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:55 am

How is it not a sport? Rules, weight classes, standardised equipment/ring.. Aren't those the characteristics of a sport???
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