Holding the Breath

[Haoran]

yeah, there are several reasons in Qigong for breath retention that I know of. Usually, someone will take this route because it's "faster" than normal, natural methods. But, with speed comes an increased danger of injury. I would say, for the most part, only advanced students should be messing with this or be closely under the watch of a qualified shifu.

[klonk]

Yeah, Peacedog. The list of side effects you give makes me want to skip out on the whole deal. Breathing is unusual in that if it is not consciously interfered with, it is autonomic, like the heartbeat. If you do not think about it, breathing works as designed. Unlike the heartbeat, you can interfere with it consciously*. Can and should are two different things.

If you are a cave man trying to make no sound while a tiger is looking for you, or if you are dunked under water, holding your breath is doubtless a fine idea and we may well be thankful for the ability, once or twice in our lives. Like some other things that have been made into gongs, like that genital stretching fellow, I am not sure this needs training.


----------
*I think people who work on concious control of the heartbeat simply have too much time on their hands.

[klonk]

What's the difference between someone who can swim 50 meters underwater and someone who can't?

Aerobic conditioning. Merely that. You can't increase your anaerobic ability otherwise. Or am I wrong?

Edit: For clarity, what I am talking about is anaerobic endurance, which is what underwater swimming calls for.

That's one way of looking at it. How about mental control and toughness?

I answered the question you asked. The difference between someone who will and won't, on the other hand, may come down to motivation. The value of underwater swimming was explained to me in terms of problems with the vehicle and burning fuel slicks on the water, which treated as a given that your motivation was pretty obvious.

[Doc Stier]

"....many yoga and chi gung systems use breathe retention as well, primarily for increasing your chi."

This is true. It should be noted, however, that such retentions of the breath are invariably performed with a stationary physical posture, not while moving around with active steps and changes of posture while holding the breath.

Yogic pranayama with breath retention is preferrably practiced in a relaxed seated meditation position with legs crossed, with the body as still as possible externally, and with movement of the breath alone internally. Additionally, breath retention while performing other yogic postures (asanas) is normally only done while holding the final shape of the asana at full extension, or while in repose at the completion of the asana when fully returned to the beginning position, prior to performing another asana.

Similarly, most chi-kung routines recommend breath retention only while holding a stationary posture, whether standing or seated or reclining, but not while performing the transitional movements from one posture to the next one, and not while performing a 'moving chi-kung' exercise with active steps and frequent changes of posture such as Tai-Chi Chuan.

In both traditions, yoga and chi-kung, it is understood that the potential risk of internal injury is likely when changing the anatomical shape and position of the internal organs, and the spatial relationships among them, while retaining the breath with internal compression. This is why retention breathwork is usually recommended and reserved only for stationary postures.

Doc

[Ian]

Like some other things that have been made into gongs, like that genital stretching fellow, I am not sure this needs training.

Kids sometimes compete to see who can hold their breath the longest.

I've never seen kids competing to see who can dangle the most weight from their grouch...

When you wipe out, sure you could say it's just a matter of holding your breath because you're under a wave, but then you'd be missing the point.

Wipeouts are nature's way of keeping us alert and awake. During the heaviest wipeout is the most important time to remain calm. It's a chance to gain real courage and strength.

The difference between someone who can swim 50+ meters underwater and someone who can't:

-the ability to stave off their panic response
-the ability to keep a clear head under stressful situations
-knowledge of what fear feels like and how to recover from that state
-less likely to feel sorry for himself
-toughness

Another fun test is to stay submerged in ice water for 2 minutes.

[Bodywork]

Training the breath is training to connect the whole body to the breath- it’s not fairy land, If you consider the shear volume of the mass managed and connected there, fascia, muscle; voluntary and involuntary as an important nexus between the lower body and upper body …it becomes somewhat obvious how it can increase the power base.
One way to look at it is to consider the lower basin; hips, pelvis, and lower dantian as sort of a wok or bowl. Then consider the upper center; the head, scapulars, deltoids, chest, and arms as resting on another “inverted” wok or bowl made up of the ribs all connected to the spine.
What is suspended between the lower bowl and upside down upper bowl? A mass of tissue; fascia and muscle involving the diaphragm and lungs. Connected by the spine And through all this the lower connects to the upper. These can be trained to feel and act like a steel reinforced hollow balloon that fills the space to not only support load but to draw in and transmit power out and have a very real twisting power and twist resistive power. Thus it both manipulates in, and out but also supports. I’m not one for la-la-land hocus pocus. I can both demonstrate, practical and serious potential to resist punches and to manipulate throw attempts and show power generation aided by the breath in a very real way, then teach how to begin.
That said. IMO holding the breath is dangerous, and stupid in martial training. There are far better ways to get edgy and push some supposed envelope. THEE best way to deal with stress is to learn to control your breathing. It manages and reduces your mental stress as well by keeping you focused and controlled through a prolonged action; whether that be grappling or more serious venues.
Since you asked for opinions Brady, I would greatly enjoy meeting and comparing the results of methods of training that includes holding the breath versus what I do and compare power output. Then…compare blood pressure rates during and after and in time...see who lives longer. Even many Karate greats bemoaned the loss of men who trained hard style breathing.
Relaxed power beats flexed power. Soft is and certainly feels hard and powerful, and gentle breath training with many repetitions is safer and will accomplish positive gains over hard breathing and “breath holding.” I’d never go down that road
Cheers
Dan

Edited for content -sorry

[Ian]

There you have it. Both Dan and Chris think breath holding is stupid. Something to think about.

[klonk]

I still don't see any reason to screw with it. Would someone please explain the upside and benefit of holding your breath when you don't have to?

[Ian]

there is no upside. only mental illness, epilepsy, hernias, stroke, and aneurysms.

[klonk]

You forgot hemorrhoids.

[Chris McKinley]

I hear you'll also develop unquestioning Sinophilism and 'Magic Bullet' Syndrome as well.......

[Bodywork]

I would include hemorriods as well. There are some guys who still think that squeezing tight stuff makes useful power. To address another issue about shortcuts? No they’re not. A short cut brings you to the same place as the long path. With this you don’t arrive at the same place so it isn’t a short cut at all…it’s a different path altogether

[Ian]

I hear you'll also develop unquestioning Sinophilism and 'Magic Bullet' Syndrome as well.......

Hope you're not spoofing the spoof, Chris.

I would include hemorriods as well. There are some guys who still think that squeezing tight stuff makes useful power.

Now where did anyone say anything about squeezing tight stuff? If anything, holding your breath requires you to be completely relaxed, mentally and physically.

[Haoran]

I still don't see any reason to screw with it. Would someone please explain the upside and benefit of holding your breath when you don't have to?

This is a forced method. I've learned several of these types of exercises but I do not currently practice them. Holding the breath either stationary or through a movement is increasing qi through the lungs, forcing the air into the body. What I've found is the body needs to be at a certain level before practicing this. The body/meridians need to be open. And, the practice needs to go SLOWLY or damage will happen. So, again, the student needs to be at an advanced level before practicing this. I've found it's easy to get headaches, diet needs to be considered, and it's a serious exercise. Not for someone to play with. I know someone who practices this type of exercise exclusively But he is a doctor of Chinese medicine, a practioner of qigong of over 30 years, and has high level teachers.

[Ian]

I guess it really depends on what you want and how high (or low) you're willing to set the bar for yourself.