Holding the Breath

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Holding the Breath

Postby I-mon on Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:35 am

In the yoga I practice the breath is divided into 4 basic stages: inhalation, retention, exhalation, suspension. the first stage to practice is exhalation, learning to make exhalation long and smooth and very slow with a constant speed, eliminating any sense of pressure or tension and without being so long as to disrupt the smoothness of the following inhalation. inhalation is allowed to remain relatively free and natural at first, since it is relatively easy to inhale a lot using force but this can build up tension in the neck and shoulders and also tends to excite the mind rather than calm it down. not necessarily a bad thing, but for yoga practice aimed at reducing mental fluctuations it is not what we want. active inhalation is trained once the slow controlled exhalation is comfortable, increasing the length and depth of inhalation while again eliminating any sense of pressure or tension from the inhalation, exhalation, and the transitions in between, and keeping exhalation significantly longer than inhalation due to the calming effect of exhalation compared to the exciting effect of inhalation. the basic time ratio of inhalation to exhalation is 1:2. the next thing trained is suspension after exhalation, since this stage can only be prolonged by keeping the mind calm and still. the long super slow exhalation causes the lower abdominal and pelvic floor muscles to slowly contract, eventually contracting everything from the belly button down to hui yin, holding this contraction while the breath is suspended after exhalation is the beginning of what is known as "mula bandha" the "root lock". as well as greatly strengthening the muscles of this crucial area this practice also has a powerful introverting effect on the mind, during the exhalation the mind sinks deep into the lower abdomen and pelvis along with the abdominal contraction, during the suspension phase the mind rests in huiyin, there is no movement of the breath and no movement of the mind, as soon as thought arises there will be a sensation of pressure or effort and one will need to take a breath in. increasing the length of the exhalation and suspension after exhalation while eliminating any sensations of extra effort or pressure or tension is an amazing way of bringing about mental relaxation and steadiness, as well as strengthening the lower abdomen, lower back, pelvis, and all of the internal organs they contain.

the very last stage to be trained is the retention of the breath after inhalation, because it is the easiest to hold by force (whereas the suspension after exhalation can only be held through relaxation and a calm mind), the easiest to build up tension in the neck, shoulders, back, face and eyes, and also has a very strong exciting effect on the heart rate and the mind, so it needs to be balanced by the other phases of long slow exhalation and relaxed suspension, in order to keep the mind steady and bring about deeper states of internal awareness.

this is the basic order of training for pranayama and asana in the yoga taught by T. Krishnamacharya for normal, healthy people. each phase is to be trained and controlled so as not to disrupt the feeling of smoothness and ease in all of the other phases. if one phase is forced even slightly it will inevitably disrupt the following phase, ie if inhalation or retention is too long then the following exhalation will need to come out more rapidly like a sigh, if exhalation or suspension is too long then there will be a need to take in a lot of air more quickly on the following inhalation, and the smooth slow flow of the breath will be disrupted causing the mind to jump, heartrate to increase, and sensitivity levels to drop back from the subtle internal changes to the larger, stronger sensations and fast movements.

FWIW.
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby Brady on Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:42 am

thanks i-mon that was very instructive
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby I-mon on Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:05 am

i should also have mentioned that there are specific ways to use the breath to influence and bring movement into different parts of the spine. i won't bother explaining them here but the movements in the chest, ribcage, diaphragm and abdomen, and the order in which these occur, in both exhalation and inhalation, all have an effect on the different regions of the spine (usually and most obviously the area of the spine at the same level of the torso as the part in question) and controlling the movement of the breath in these areas can be used to bring about specific desired effects. again, in the yoga taught by Krishnamacharya none of this is random, all of it is controlled according to the specified purpose.
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby Peacedog on Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:57 am

xxxxxxxxxxx
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby Brady on Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:59 pm

I've heard of the bell effect of CIMA training, but is there any practical reason they call it gold?
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby Peacedog on Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:50 pm

xxxxxxxxxxx
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby klonk on Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:11 pm

At some point this discussion went down two separate paths, did anyone notice? It started with packed, stacked, Valsalva or restricted exhalation. Nothing said thus far persuades me of a martial benefit and the health risks are well known.

But then, like in a Bach cantata, some people come along singing a different song, gentle breathwork is okay, or expert guidance is needed. That is not where the thread started, of course. I would like to return da capo for a moment to say that the warning stands. If you pressurize yourself like a balloon, you might go POP!

Sort of like, in the karate world, there is a huffing and puffing exercise called sanchin. It has its defenders. Oh no, they say, the people with negative health effects were only doing it wrong! The exercise is good if done right!

Ah, so. Never learn karate from someone who is running a tab at the pharmacy for Preparation H.
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby Peacedog on Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:28 pm

Just remember on the whole, it goes on the hole! The Preparation H that is.
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby klonk on Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:29 pm

Ah so. -bow-
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby KHK on Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:09 am

Brady wrote:Do you find holding the breath (aka bracing/valsalva) to be a useful technique either in a fight or in training? If so, in what situations do you find it useful? If not, why not?


When i do my first Karate competition end of the 60th i was holding my breath sometimes, because i was a little bit nervous :)
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby Daniel on Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:33 am

Edited for brevity.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby edededed on Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:09 pm

I don't know the specific Chinese term for "golden bell," but in Chinese "gold" is the same word for "metal," which is the reason that "gold" appears so often in translations.

(So, you could translate the piquan element of "metal" as the element of "gold.")
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby klonk on Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:16 pm

Daniel, I will say this much, it is not a good idea to hold your breath while singing.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby Daniel on Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:21 pm

Edited for brevity.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.
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Re: Holding the Breath

Postby meeks on Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:07 pm

there's been some really inciteful explanations of the advantages of breath holding, but I'm surprised to see how many people are 'poo-pooing' the concept. First of all, if you're risking roid development, aneurysms or other health issues, you're doing it incorrectly. It's not about inhale and hold. it's about inhale, place it, expand/pack it, then retain it for a duration of time.

You wouldn't jump in an do the whole form while blowing the veins out on your forehead - if you get to a point where your speed of breathing increases to a point of panting, you've gone further than you're currently capable. It's like a squat or square horse stance - you go as low as you can before you lose pelvic tilt - any further (lose of the 'tuck') and you've exceeded what you're capable of at this point of your training. I've never heard of doing a form with your breath held, but I could see the benefits of giving a student something to aim towards in their training, which is to gradually increase the length of time they can maintain their breath 'packed'. Someone mentioned how it affects the fascia when you do this sort of breath work - exactly (was that the same post that then turned and said "it's a bad idea" ?).

The key is not about 'doing the form with your breath held' - it's about holding your breath for a longer duration to exercise the diaphragms and strengthen the 'solidification of structure' that occurs when you pack your breath.
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