Kwan Um Do Kwang

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:57 am

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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Trick on Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:03 am

wiesiek wrote:Suppose, that there are more than one possibility,
My knowledge of ancient swordsmanship history is shallow .
Probably even Kim doesn`t know exactly, `cause he prayed to Mahakala, and he doesen`t care anyway.
But
Mahakala is Dharma Guardian , -
My present >transcendental knowledge< is telling me, that all Buddhists sword masters are( forms) ,part/s/ of his "body".
Anyway, what is 100% sure :
- two swords style has Buddhist Temple origin
- was practiced and used 500 y,a. in Korea
- Mahakala bring it back thru Kim`s body

What relay shocked me a little -Kim doesn`t had any previous MA background !
and
kicked arse of Kendoka with over 20 years experience...

digging more:
I don`t know any Japan two swords system /our board Nippon insiders may straight up me on this/
so, I come up with Miamoto, Korea isn`t to far away and time is about right...

After couple trainings I can tell you, that this is really >no shit< system with incredibly huge potential of controlling the space around you .

Of course in the Chinese martial arts it’s not unusual to see forms where two Sabers are in use. Some time ago I saw a videoclip of Seikichi Uehara of Motobu-ryu (Okinawan MA(karate)) practicing with two sabers(not Japanese ones but Chinese Dao)
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:23 am

great, thx, T.,
now, it could be interesting to compare one sword form/s/ with two swords
in terms of the moves used to build them.
Are they the same or distinctive different,
so far I`m unable to do it, `cause I know only one sword form/s/, and even didn`t sow two swords form/s/ in any style for that matter, :( .
I only get info , that two sword form in Shim gun do is totally different if you compare it with one sword form.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:09 pm

wiesiek wrote:
digging more:
I don`t know any Japan two swords system /our board Nippon insiders may straight up me on this/
so, I come up with Miamoto, Korea isn`t to far away and time is about right...

After couple trainings I can tell you, that this is really >no shit< system with incredibly huge potential of controlling the space around you .


There is a difference. Musashi actually existed - his school was handed to a few disciples, and continues today. It is not in fact a 'two sword' system, but does include two sword techniques:



It seems from what you've said that your 'Kwan Um Do Kwang' is a recent invention - I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of 'historical' provenance beyond that it was dreamed up by a Buddhist monk?

There are in fact several old Japanese martial arts which teach the use of two swords - Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Shinkage ryu, Shingyoto ryu, Tendo Ryu, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and others. These are centuries old traditions which have been passed down through generations by numerous practitioners, rather than modern inventions.

Trick wrote:The "Heavenly True, Correctly Transmitted Style of the Way of the God of Katori" style have some interesting Iai-Kata, quite different than most Iaido I’ve seen. And their sword pair/sparring katas also interesting.


We call our iai Battojutsu and Iaijutsu. The 'sparring' is kenjutsu:

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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Graculus on Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:32 pm

A Korean double sword form was recorded in the Muye Dobo Tongji (1790). It is believed that many of the arts detailed in that work have a strong Chinese influence.
There seem to be no direct descendants of these arts, but people are putting quite a lot of effort into recreating these arts.

This is one example:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=171&v=-N2nOafF0qk[/youtube]

I haven't heard of any others claiming divine inspiration, but it is interesting that Peacedog was talking about something very similar a couple of months ago.

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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby HotSoup on Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:44 pm

The paired swords styles seem to be the next Korean fad. Here's the style about existence of which I learnt a year or something ago. It's called Poong Ryu Son Do:


The founder also claims multi-thousand years history, Buddhist monasteries, and other stuff, but it doesn't seem like anyone ever bothered to back it up with anything substantial. Interestingly, the majority of "lineage-holders" of all these styles demonstrate good abilities in body control and movement in general, mostly looking like they have had some foundational training in Hapkido, Taekkyeon, and Kumdo at earlier time. It's not uncommon to see exercises similar to Yoga:


and so-called "Taichi" (an abstract movement exercise):


Leaving aside the mythical side of things, it looks not bad, probably because it's based on real MA well-developed in modern South Korea.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:52 pm

so far,
I found this on the web:

https://shimgumdo.org/the-art-of-shim-gum-do/

@Finny
Korean sword fencing art is historically proven, there are some scripts and drawing/paintings in temples .
Kinda of similar story like Polish sabre style.
Mushashi was real person, sure thing, but I heard that there are more than one school with his name on the banner.
Anyway his soul is part of Mahakala now
so
discussion who has the right thing can be resolved by him only... 8-)
Sorry if I pressed your sensitive point, didn1t mean to.
Last edited by wiesiek on Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:02 pm

@HotSoup
You maybe missed it,
but
I mentioned earlier, that Kim didn`t had previous MA background /most interesting part of the story, if you askin` me/.

Speaking about Chinese influences in Korea worth to mention, that Lu Shu Tien was there pretty long.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:38 pm

wiesiek wrote:so far,
I found this on the web:

https://shimgumdo.org/the-art-of-shim-gum-do/

@Finny
Korean sword fencing art is historically proven, there are some scripts and drawing/paintings in temples .
Kinda of similar story like Polish sabre style.
Mushashi was real person, sure thing, but I heard that there are more than one school with his name on the banner.
Anyway his soul is part of Mahakala now
so
discussion who has the right thing can be resolved by him only... 8-)
Sorry if I pressed your sensitive point, didn1t mean to.


If by 'sensitive point', you mean 'area of interest', absolutely - I've had a long interest in sword arts, and their historical provenance.

Yes, I'm sure it has been proven that Koreans fought with swords. I'm equally certain that no codified sword art has been transmitted in Korea. Kinda like the whole 'pankration' thing. Yes, there are drawings proving it existed - past tense.

As HotSoup mentioned - there has been in the last several decades, a proliferation of 'traditional' or 'historical' Korean MA, which are modern inventions, being ascribed a false history in order to bolster their name(s).

Yes - Musashi initially taught what he called Enmei Ryu - which is practised by one group I'm aware of in Japan. He later changed the name of his art to 'Niten Ichi Ryu' - there are several lines of this school still extant in Japan. Personally, having studied koryu kenjutsu and iai, and having seen some of these modern 'historical' sword art inventions... I don't exactly understand why one would want to learn use of an outdated weapon from someone who's never used it, or learned from someone who used it (or so on..) . But that's just me.

I was simply pointing out the difference. Sorry if that's a 'sensitive point' for you.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby jaime_g on Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:54 am

What relay shocked me a little -Kim doesn`t had any previous MA background !
and
kicked arse of Kendoka with over 20 years experience...


Are there any proofs of that?
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:10 am

Well.. having seen the video Wiesiek posted,

wiesiek wrote:
Kim doesn`t had any previous MA background !



This - I believe. In fact it seems obvious, watching the video of him.

wiesiek wrote:
and
kicked arse of Kendoka with over 20 years experience...



This I struggle to believe, having seen the vid.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby jaime_g on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:16 am

Ok. I hadnt seen the video ???

No further questions needed, he is terrible
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby HotSoup on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:01 am

@wiesek, no I don't think I missed anything. I just suggested that all the stories about divine revelations, temples, and so on smelled too strong to believe in. And once there's one smelly thing, trusting the rest of the story may be dangerous. As a matter of fact, the majority of the Korean styles claiming authenticity are mostly based on the Japanese post-WWII legacy. Why Kwan Um Do Kwang should be an exception, clearly demonstrating all the same traits as the others, stays a mystery.

I'm surprised you're not applying much of critical thinking to these fairy tales. If what they do is good, that's great. But believing everything what they say... Really? Just make sure it's not another cult before giving away your property ;)
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:39 am

ok,
thank you Guys for the word of warning.
To make my position clear, and answer the questions :

- If practicing Zen is cult in your opinion, then I`m doomed :)
- we paying by sweat on trainings, not any fee for instructor.
btw, interesting, that H.S. clips examples shows quite big crowd. We are 2- 4 crazy guys , and Mark has very few students in US.
- worth to mention, that first time from looong time I feel sore muscles next day, /I`m by any means greenhorn in heavy workouts/, and I like it .
- I posted the Shimgumdo page, but looked on it only briefly , so cannot comment about Kim`s performance yet,
but
I heard exactly the same comment all around, however based only from clips.
Things became quite different when it come to real fight - there are the words, of course,
so
I opened thread here in hope, that some of our board experienced members met him already, or will do
in the future
- Soe San Nim was with Kim in Japan for invitation from "fencing circle"- He was very proud of KIm and I`m no in position of trashing words of vulnerable Zen Master.
- there are big gaps in Korean fencing traditions, like here in Poland, and of course legends may sound weak
but
I`m not to sensitive in terms of Mastery, let it be : big or very big, not to mention the biggest :D
I can describe myself as not so bad and experienced in h2h combat only, then I was in hope , that somebody like you Finny, experienced in sword fencing give Kims a try ...
I simply like to train hard, and all moves which I get so far ,are :
not to complicated and looks very effective

-I don`t mop up a story, like penguin fish, but it doesn`t mean that I don`t like it -joint-
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:50 am

ps
I do not know this "Poong" style, so can`t comment about it, I sow it 1st time on this thread :)
From the clip - its looks like shitty TJ for me.
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