What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:13 am

Hello fellow IMA nerds. ;D

I have written an article on Bengquan that you may or may not like. Here it is for your delectation:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... ght-punch/
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:09 pm

When does a Beng quan(or any punch)have the most devastating effect ? Well when it’s executed with perfect timing. In Karate(Shotokan)there’s the concept ‘one punch one kill’ probably borrowed from Jigen-ryu’s ‘first strike’ these sayings refers to the importance of understanding correct timing in combat. How’s that(Taijiquan?)saying,-when opponent strikes I arrive first ? That’s the focus to have when drilling the solo exercise bengquan, or any of the other XYQ fists....Watch carefully at the guy in that gif in your article doing the punch, you see the pull(being pulled)step in and trough ? kind of as catching up to arrive at the right time........Of course first one has to learn the basic body and footwork methods, then when those are in place it’s time to work on when to bengquan......In western boxing one basically only work on that(timing) in different sparring scenarios, while in XYQ(and some otherChinese boxing methods)as strange as it may sound one also work on that in its its solo exercises, and that combined with the lively forward almost aggressive footwork that adds an strong feeling of ‘what’s ahead is to be dealt with’ might be what makes XYQ just that......So it’s as much if not more about the mind/mentality/senses as it is about body mechanics that are sharpened through its exercises
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:04 pm

It's about pouring tea and the serpentine path of both the incoming and outgoing fists being balanced
This is combined with full body arriving like an avalanche
Most people I have seen are just punching it has little to do with hsing I
Before you talk about beng make sure you understand Pi
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:40 pm

Graham, have you practiced XY?

wayne hansen wrote:Before you talk about beng make sure you understand Pi


Agreed! 8-)
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:54 pm

Yes agreed, in Pi there’s all the fists. I’ll go further and say the spirits of the fists are first to be felt in the santishi. That might sound Zen like but its nothing such, if have the right “tools” it’s quite simple.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby jaime_g on Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:16 pm

I liked the article!

I see beng as the easiest way to train horizontal dantian rotation
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:44 am

Dantian rotation ? No need to go into such. I take the freedom to post the link Windwalker posted in the other thread. Jack Dempsey’ exelent “Championship Fighting”. There’s some good XYQ writing. Such as the falling step, power line for example https://zanshinkai.files.wordpress.com/ ... jdbook.pdf
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby KEND on Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:50 pm

I wont comment on the video but the punch extends to 90% of total extension. The ribs and hips provide the 'closing' vector of force, so the punch vector is at45 to the front, this is why an opponents block is swept aside, not due to body momentum. The fist strikes on the centerline but the shock is directed 45 degrees to the liver. The straight punch exchanges energy to the fascia and muscle compressing them and causing bruising and possible breaking of ribs. The energy is not focused as in beng chuan
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Yeung on Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:33 pm

GrahamB wrote:Hello fellow IMA nerds. ;D

I have written an article on Bengquan that you may or may not like. Here it is for your delectation:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... ght-punch/


In scene of the Grand Master, the Ban Bu Beng Quan 半步崩拳 (half step collapse fist) was mention, which is the signature technique of Xingyiquan. And you did not address it in your article.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Yeung on Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:46 pm

Have a look at the story of Master Guo Yunshen and his Ban Bu Beng Quan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Yunshen
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby johnwang on Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:01 pm

I like to long fist "running punch" better than the XingYi Beng Chuan for the following reasons:

- It can cover more distance.
- More footwork training.
- The downward blocking is added in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=224foC_ ... e=youtu.be
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:32 am

johnwang wrote:I like to long fist "running punch" better than the XingYi Beng Chuan for the following reasons:

- It can cover more distance.
- More footwork training.
- The downward blocking is added in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=224foC_ ... e=youtu.be


nice, reminded me of some 弹腿 TánTuǐI used to know.


some might find some relevance in this.



CHAPTER 8 The Nature of Things



Shields defend, spears attack, fish swim, hawks fly; each has its own nature [or characteristics]. Without their nature they would not have been what they are. This also applies to the techniques of the martial arts. A cautious person stresses the technique of defending himself, while the adventurous type is more inclined to attacking.

Those who use long weapons are not skillful in using short ones; those who use short weapons are clumsy in using long ones. Those who stress attention on the front neglect the back; those who emphasize the back will take the front lightly. Some take the crooked way to counteract the straight; and the straight does not serve the crooked. Different schools have different principles, and they all strive to uphold their principles. Therefore, the principles cannot be lost.

If lost, the measures (of a technique) will be in confusion. If one is able to lay his foundation on the principles so as to push forward till the end (i.e. persistent all through), then that is the perfect way.

There is a certain principle behind the fact that rulers can be used to draw squares and compasses can be used to draw circles. This principle also indicates the nature of these drawing instruments.

Being able to understand the basic nature of things is like having a strong natural physical endowment.

Being able to improve upon this nature is like healthy growth after birth. Therefore, it is the nature of the type of technique concerned, which determines its form.

(By) improving (upon) this basic form, many patterns can be developed. This is also the way the sages developed their philosophy. Therefore, the basic nature of things should never be overlooked and developments must also be made upon [from] it.

http://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-lio ... -siu-jong/
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:30 am

johnwang wrote:I like to long fist "running punch" better than the XingYi Beng Chuan for the following reasons:

- It can cover more distance.
- More footwork training.
- The downward blocking is added in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=224foC_ ... e=youtu.be


Interesting. Very different mechanics though. I like XY better than longfist styles. XY use more striking to block with than actual blocks, slide and use angles to penetrate the line of defense. I also like Baji’s punch using the whole movement of of turning the whole side to the opponent.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby GrahamB on Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:09 am

Yeung wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Hello fellow IMA nerds. ;D

I have written an article on Bengquan that you may or may not like. Here it is for your delectation:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... ght-punch/


In scene of the Grand Master, the Ban Bu Beng Quan 半步崩拳 (half step collapse fist) was mention, which is the signature technique of Xingyiquan. And you did not address it in your article.


It is incorrect to say that Half Step Bengquan is the "signature technique of Xingyiquan". It was what Gou Yun Shen was famous for, but he was just one master amongst many in a very large and very old martial art.

Saying "collapse first" doesn't sound right in English, either.

And you are also incorrect that I didn't mention it in my article. I did.

Apart from that, I agree with everything you said.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Tiga Pukul on Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:32 am

Although it's a very different punching technique than I'm used to.... i have a question about this remark:

'....Bengquan. Done correctly it should displace a pad holder significantly'

Why should a hit displace your opponent significantly? Sounds cool but all the energy that is used to displace a person is not used to go inside the body of the opponent. So basically what it does is make him fall over, without actually disabling the opponent. Shouldn't the damage be done inside the body instead?
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