What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

[GrahamB]

Thanks for the question - so "displace" doesn't always mean knock over (as in knock them downward) - what I mean is it should be moving them backwards.

I've been reading Gates of Fire recently (great book btw) about the Spartans and there's lots of detail of their shield work in there, how they used to train to knock a man back with a shield charge so that it would make them feel like all the wind as knocked out of them (and most of the consciousness too).

That's the kind of thing I mean. The Beng should be going 'through' - as in through the space that they occupied. When my teacher benged me it was like I'd been run through with a spear that just happened to be his hand. You crumpled in pain and you went backwards.

Edit: The footwork in Xingyi supports this type of punch - you keep stepping forward, moving through the opponent, rather than jumping in and out exchanging blows. This type of footwork is usually highly observable in any Xingyi 'form' you watch. The implication being you're either displacing your opponent continually or forcing them to move backwards under pressure. (That's a gross generalisation, once you are looking at XY animals it's not that straightforward.)

What I don't mean is that you hit the person on the surface, they go "argh" and drop to their knees in pain clutching their whatever - that's a different sort of hit to a Beng. (although there will inevitably be some branch of XingYi that does specialise in this - some of the Shanxi styles for instance seem to be more like this. It's hard to generalise about a subject as big as "Xingyi".)

[GrahamB]

Then I realised I hadn't answered the question of 'why' do this....

So, my answer to that would be that the origins of the art are in spear fighting in a military setting. To pierce armour you need to go 'through' the opponent with the weapons, not stab 'at' them with it.

Obviously, there aren't the same situations in civilian life, and without weapons, so I can see arguments for dropping this method and doing something else, but the story of Ji Long Feng (the earliest historically mentioned Xingyi/Xinyi practitioner), is that he adapted his spear art to barehand, so that's what he did, and that's what got passed on. My opinion, anyway.

[Trick]

I've been reading Gates of Fire recently (great book btw) about the Spartans and there's lots of detail of their shield work in there, how they used to train to knock a man back with a shield charge so that it would make them feel like all the wind as knocked out of them (and most of the consciousness too).

That might work against a bengquan or a spear but one must be very careful

[johnwang]

I also like Baji’s punch using the whole movement of of turning the whole side to the opponent.

The long fist vertical punch is the same as the Baji punch. The only difference is the downward block. I like the downward block because when I use left downward block, I can extend my left arm forward as far as I can and pull back my right shoulder as far as I can. My body can be a perfect line from my left hand, left arm, chest, and my right shoulder. When I punch out my right arm, my right hand can travel to the maximum distance. This will give me the maximum compression before releasing. The downward block is part of the compression.

The XingYi Beng Chuan doesn't give me the maximum compression and maximum releasing feeling

[Bao]

I also like Baji’s punch using the whole movement of of turning the whole side to the opponent.

The long fist vertical punch is the same as the Baji punch. The only difference is the downward block. I like the downward block because when I use left downward block, I can extend my left arm forward as far as I can and pull back my right shoulder as far as I can. My body can be a perfect line from my left hand, left arm, chest, and my right shoulder...

Maybe so. I didn’t see it in the clip and I didn’t see the same use of body mechanics. But maybe you are correct, I don’t know much about LF.

The XingYi Beng Chuan doesn't give me the maximum compression and maximum releasing feeling

I like the strong, long stretching movements in Baji. But I like XY compactness better as I find using its whole body movement stronger. Even for the little Baji I have done, I find simply throwing the whole body while using the arm as little as possible gives a stronger punch than trying to “release” or stretch the arm.

[johnwang]

The maximum compression and maximum releasing can be seen at 0.40 - 0.43. His downward blocking is the same as the downward blocking used in the long fist running punch. The Baji (or long fist) method make me more excited than the XingYi Beng Chuan method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqWUFOtIHc

[Yeung]

Guo Yunshen improved the Bengquan, and most practitioners follow his improvement in dragging the rear leg forward in the half step reverse straight punch. The technique you demonstrated did not fully utilize the power in Bengquan.

[GrahamB]

Guo Yunshen improved the Bengquan, and most practitioners follow his improvement in dragging the rear leg forward in the half step reverse straight punch. The technique you demonstrated did not fully utilize the power in Bengquan.

"Guo Yunshen improved the Bengquan" - there is no evidence for that statement.

"and most practitioners follow his improvement in dragging the rear leg forward in the half step reverse straight punch" - reverse straight punch? Are you talking about Karate? I think you're talking about Karate.

"The technique you demonstrated did not fully utilize the power in Bengquan" - I did not demonstrate any techniques in my article.

[Trick]

Guo Yunshen improved the Bengquan, and most practitioners follow his improvement in dragging the rear leg forward in the half step reverse straight punch. The technique you demonstrated did not fully utilize the power in Bengquan.

"Guo Yunshen improved the Bengquan" - there is no evidence for that statement.

"and most practitioners follow his improvement in dragging the rear leg forward in the half step reverse straight punch" - reverse straight punch? Are you talking about Karate? I think you're talking about Karate.

Aobu bengquan -twist step BQ -reverse punch...BQ is also practiced with full step in both reverse-punch and lead punch fashion...Gou Yunshen “invented” half step BQ ? It can be found in for example the Chicken form. Combining the reverse and lead BQ in half step mood might have been because lack of practice space ? Of course the half step BQ practice has its qualities.

[Wanderingdragon]

I think the article is a well written peace,yet,imo, it neglects one simplicity of Xingiquan. The hand retracts to the hip purely by the shenfa described. It is on track with the center, the hip turns, the shoulder turns, stepping forward or back or alternating steps, if the body is the hand it goes no further than the waist, any further moves beyond what is natural and the strike is by hand and is incorrect. The hip extends the spear and retracts the spear, though the forward arm is fixed, it is connected to the hip, remove the spear and it is a strike.

[johnwang]

Guo Yunshen improved the Bengquan, and most practitioners follow his improvement in dragging the rear leg forward in the half step reverse straight punch. The technique you demonstrated did not fully utilize the power in Bengquan.

If you don't switch sides, 1/2 step is enough. If you switch sides, it will take more than 1/2 step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg3SQxj ... e=youtu.be

[edededed]

I think that Yeung is trying to say that bengquan appears to be a modification of the "typical" reverse punch of longfist, Shaolin, etc.

- gongbu -> genbu (following step)
- full chambering of arms -> smaller chambering (not all the way back)
- 180 degree rotation of fists -> 90 degree rotation of fists
- full stepping to reverse side punch -> inching stepping without changing sides

We don't know who made each of the changes (might not have been Guo), but we can see some differences in Che style vs. Hebei style.
For example, Che style bengquan seems to change sides instead of "inching" stepping.

[GrahamB]

I think that Yeung is trying to say that bengquan appears to be a modification of the "typical" reverse punch of longfist, Shaolin, etc.

So my article was making the point that this was not the case.

Bengquan, done barehand, is simply an adaptation of spear thrusting to barehand striking. It's not a modification of any other method.

[johnwang]

Bengquan, done barehand, is simply an adaptation of spear thrusting to barehand striking. It's not a modification of any other method.

Should we simply say that there is only

- good Beng Chuan that you can use it to knock your opponent down.
- bad Beng Chuan that you can't use it to knock your opponent down.

Everything else is not that important.

- You can use hip throw to throw your opponent down 1000 times.
- You can't use your Beng Chuan to knock your opponent down 1000 times.

One day when you are 80 years old, you will still be proud about your hip throw (because you have make it work on the mat over 1000 times). Should you feel proud about your Beng Chuan (because you have not make it work in the ring even once)?

All striking art have this problem.

[GrahamB]

I think what is Important depends on the situation. It changes.

I'm not sure *any* of this is really "important".

The Midterms are what's really important