dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
johnwang wrote:Let's look at how many different ways that you can throw a straight punch.
1. boxing jab - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, punch leading hand. 2. boxing cross - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, punch back hand. 3. step in punch - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, and step in the back leg, punch back hand.
There are more straight punch varieties than this, even if you ignore different targets and angles. e.g., Dempsey's jolt. You can also step forward with your back foot or step back with your front foot while delivering straight punches. Superman punch is pretty common nowadays and I've even seen a clip of Xinyi that demonstrated straight punch where the primary driver is the contraction/expansion of the kua.
In the Tongbeiquan i practice there is the five fists(somewhat different from XYQ’s) one is Zhongquan(mid level straight punch), in practice the punching arm cross under the retracting arm and gives it an true mid level punch feeling. Interesting is that the Zhuan(drilling) toward upper level also pass under the retracting arm, the feeling to get is intercepting an attackers strike on the inside including a slight parry. The importance in the exercise is to get the sense of timing right rather than try to generate power strikes.
GrahamB wrote:If we're talking about boxing I think I'll duck out - I just don't know enough about boxing to comment sensibly.
A key to look for in Xingyiquan, when its applied under pressure, is that the footwork doesn’t devolve into other methods, like say, falling into a long riding horse stance to help make up ground.
Have any clips or links showing it being applied under pressure. Kinda hard to look for something if its not shown.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Beng's retracting hand is not there to make the body move in relaxed harmony, enable dantien rotation/fascia/chi or to mimic/help with spear work. It's there to clear an opponents arm from blocking. Plus it pulls them into it. I use this in sparring when using mma gloves. Most people won't think to do this because they don't see it impacting a lot. Also in tournaments it does not register with judges but it can still take the wind out of the opponent.
As for what makes it different to a straight punch? For starters it's not a straight and neither is the support structure. It's all in the bows. It's not even in the stepping because beng/bung can be used in half step, back step, passing step or any other step. The reason why it is taught with the stepping is to teach the 3 alignments, strengthening, mobility etc.
This is all in the beginning with the basic form. With practise beng gets refined so that it uses the bows. The legs piston, the torso twists but the parts that usually don't get engaged in other styles are that the hips remain facing the target and that the shoulders and back bow and twist at the same speed of striking. All with the elbow down and sometimes with the legs driving it with a big movement.
I found a good test to see if this working is to find a good boxer with a solid core. Stand in front of them with parallel legs and both take turns to strike the gut with a straight punch from a short range (a couple of inches away and no pull back). If done right the impact difference should be so noticable that it is clear that beng is the better short straight punch for that range especially when pulling an opponent in via an arm, neck, head or whatever.
dspyrido wrote:Beng's retracting hand is not there to make the body move in relaxed harmony, enable dantien rotation/fascia/chi or to mimic/help with spear work. It's there to clear an opponents arm from blocking. Plus it pulls them into it. I use this in sparring when using mma gloves. Most people won't think to do this because they don't see it impacting a lot. Also in tournaments it does not register with judges but it can still take the wind out of the opponent.
As for what makes it different to a straight punch? For starters it's not a straight and neither is the support structure. It's all in the bows. It's not even in the stepping because beng/bung can be used in half step, back step, passing step or any other step. The reason why it is taught with the stepping is to teach the 3 alignments, strengthening, mobility etc.
This is all in the beginning with the basic form. With practise beng gets refined so that it uses the bows. The legs piston, the torso twists but the parts that usually don't get engaged in other styles are that the hips remain facing the target and that the shoulders and back bow and twist at the same speed of striking. All with the elbow down and sometimes with the legs driving it with a big movement.
I found a good test to see if this working is to find a good boxer with a solid core. Stand in front of them with parallel legs and both take turns to strike the gut with a straight punch from a short range (a couple of inches away and no pull back). If done right the impact difference should be so noticable that it is clear that beng is the better short straight punch for that range especially when pulling an opponent in via an arm, neck, head or whatever.
Usually, a boxer's shoulders do not start "parallel," when throwing a straight punch. A "good" boxing straight punch test would start with the boxer's shoulders at a 90 degree angle to the opponent (not parallel), land the front foot, then finish rotating hips and shoulders sequentially and release (kinetic chain).
So comparing a boxer's straight punch with a beng quan that starts parallel and foot lands simultaneously with punch, the boxer's punch should be more powerful for the reasons (e.g., whole body, kinetic chain, etc.) I gave on page 4 of this thread.
For short range, a boxer would normally choose a short hook or uppercut to the body, in order to use the kinetic chain.
I would argue that the BQ to have its power must be executed when the opponent moving in, preferably at the moment opponent is at the intention of moving in/forward. A standing still opponent would be rare I guess.
Trick wrote:I would argue that the BQ to have its power must be executed when the opponent moving in, preferably at the moment opponent is at the intention of moving in/forward. A standing still opponent would be rare I guess.
Yes, it's called timing. If opponent moves in and is unable to change, the punch is more powerful.
Edit: Another point (numerous others) is Tyson slips to his right (level change, absorb, sink), helping draw in Botha (lure), then changes head slots to his left (change of direction), releasing his straight right diagonally downwards (similar to a baseball pitch), which creates more torque.
oragami_itto wrote:They usually dodge a little
If one is trying to chase down or grab an opponent, the opponent may read your intention and turn away, back up, counter, etc.
Botha moves into Tyson's straight right (slips inside Tyson's wide jab) and gets KO'd:
(Same play, but you see their legs.) Tyson steps forward to the left, jabs wide and releases a short right hand (grounded, whole body punch. One inch punch?). Notice that is 2 punches in one step vs beng quan—one punch per step:
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.
marvin8 wrote:Usually, a boxer's shoulders do not start "parallel," when throwing a straight punch. A "good" boxing straight punch test would start with the boxer's shoulders at a 90 degree angle to the opponent (not parallel), land the front foot, then finish rotating hips and shoulders sequentially and release (kinetic chain).
So comparing a boxer's straight punch with a beng quan that starts parallel and foot lands simultaneously with punch, the boxer's punch should be more powerful for the reasons (e.g., whole body, kinetic chain, etc.) I gave on page 4 of this thread.
The power in a cross is different to wood especially at more advanced levels. The cross relies on distance to accelerate the mass. Wood is trained to close distance and strike (like a cross) but it's advancement is in being able to use it at short range like i mention above. A trap is rarely used in boxing due to the gloves. Also this short power gets dampened by the gloves hence why boxing relies on momentum to compress the glove and maximise impact transfer.
marvin8 wrote:For short range, a boxer would normally choose a short hook or uppercut to the body, in order to use the kinetic chain.
The digs come closer to wood mechanics but they usually rely on twisting the striking arms, shoulder and hip into the target. They are used mainly on the ribs or head and have little effect when hitting the the gut or chest.
Wood has a real difference. The striking hand shoulder twists with the arm, bows in the back and shoulders (while striking) but the hip twists almost the opposite direction to the strike to lock the core. It is a great punch when used directly into the solar plexus or the heart. Even on the gut or chest it can take the wind out.
As mentioned the boxing gloves will dampen this so it works best with no gloves or 4oz.
Last edited by dspyrido on Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
marvin8 wrote:So, can your elaborate on how your "leading hand" generates more power than your "back hand?"
2. boxing cross - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, punch back hand. 3. step in punch - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, and step in the back leg, punch back hand.
step in punch = boxing cross + step in the back leg.
I concur that the boxing hooks and uppercuts are a lot closer to a Bengquan than the cross. A good Bengquan combines the best qualities of both. My Paoquan and Bengquan are quite similar. The difference is that the Paoquan starts from the shoulder and the Bengquan comes from the hip. The off hand does different things as well and the Paoquan extends out a little further, depending on the situation. The power generation method is identical.
marvin8 wrote:Usually, a boxer's shoulders do not start "parallel," when throwing a straight punch. A "good" boxing straight punch test would start with the boxer's shoulders at a 90 degree angle to the opponent (not parallel), land the front foot, then finish rotating hips and shoulders sequentially and release (kinetic chain).
So comparing a boxer's straight punch with a beng quan that starts parallel and foot lands simultaneously with punch, the boxer's punch should be more powerful for the reasons (e.g., whole body, kinetic chain, etc.) I gave on page 4 of this thread.
The power in a cross is different to wood especially at more advanced levels. The cross relies on distance to accelerate the mass. Wood is trained to close distance and strike (like a cross) but it's advancement is in being able to use it at short range like i mention above.
A trap is rarely used in boxing due to the gloves. Also this short power gets dampened by the gloves hence why boxing relies on momentum to compress the glove and maximise impact transfer.
"Relies" is the wrong word. The straight punch is more powerful not only because of distance, but also torque, sequential whole body power, rotation, open and close of kua and shoulders, weight transfer, etc., as already mentioned.
The physics, mechanics and power generated from the kinetic chain remain the same with or without gloves as evidenced in sports such as bare knuckle boxing, major league baseball, NFL, etc.
dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:For short range, a boxer would normally choose a short hook or uppercut to the body, in order to use the kinetic chain.
The digs come closer to wood mechanics but they usually rely on twisting the striking arms, shoulder and hip into the target. They are used mainly on the ribs or head and have little effect when hitting the the gut or chest.
Again, not "relies" but takes advantage of the whole kinetic chain process, not only "twisting." The lead hook and rear upper cut can be short range punches and are more powerful. Because, they can also take advantage of the kinetic chain, which includes shifting weight from hip to hip.
The lead hook and rear upper cut can have more "effect" on all targets including the gut, chest, solar plexus or the heart, as it is more powerful using the kinetic chain.
dspyrido wrote:Wood has a real difference. The striking hand shoulder twists with the arm, bows in the back and shoulders (while striking) but the hip twists almost the opposite direction to the strike to lock the core. It is a great punch when used directly into the solar plexus or the heart. Even on the gut or chest it can take the wind out.
Again, the lead hook and rear upper cut can target all areas of the body and is more powerful. Because, they use more than "twisting" and "bowing."
Here is a video with beng quan in sparring, where the exact stepping method in the form is missing. I don't see a huge difference from the Dempsey falling step, shifting punches, etc:
marvin8 wrote:So, can your elaborate on how your "leading hand" generates more power than your "back hand?"
2. boxing cross - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, punch back hand. 3. step in punch - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, and step in the back leg, punch back hand.
step in punch = boxing cross + step in the back leg.
Step in punch does not equal boxing cross + step in the back leg. Because, your video shows using the lead hand to punch. The cross generates power from the rear hand and using the kinetic chain. The mechanics are different.
So, the question remains the same, "can your elaborate on how your "leading hand" generates more power than your "back hand?"
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
