What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 am

Trick wrote:Is this what you reach for during sparring ?


Never considered trying to use XY for sparring. My main interest has never been there.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:41 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Is this what you reach for during sparring ?


Never considered trying to use XY for sparring. My main interest has never been there.

You train how you will fight. If you don't use it in sparring, why do you even train XingYi for?
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:03 am

johnwang wrote:You train how you will fight.


Exactly.

If you don't use it in sparring, why do you even train XingYi for?


I don't.

I practiced it for more than 10 years but always on a very rudimentary level. Never been interested to dig deeper. I return to Santi practice in periods for leg strength practice, but that's the only thing I've kept. Still love the art though.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:19 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Is this what you reach for during sparring ?


Never considered trying to use XY for sparring. My main interest has never been there.

Use it for sparring, no. But sparring to be able to make use of it, yes?....It just seemed you where quite sure how you are able to make use of it when you wrote -
Frankly, I don't see the point of this kind of practice. Might build bad habits but maybe it's good for practicing whole body movement. In the XY I've been taught moving the opponent is considered a mistake. The power taught penetrates very deep and makes the opponent go down, preferably just by one punch.
Trick

 

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:39 am

That’s not me in the GIF. No idea why he’s moving his head like that.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13554
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Bao on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:44 am

Use it for sparring, no. But sparring to be able to make use of it, yes?....It just seemed you where quite sure how you are able to make use of it when you wrote -


I am not going to try to use full power of any kind of fist when sparring regardless I would try to use BGZ, TJQ or XYQ. If you read the other posts you would know that I wrote about developing the power through other means as punching bags and by getting help from a more experienced partner holding a kicking protection who can better measure the quality of the impact.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:42 pm

His head is bobbing in the gif as it is a rapid repeat loop and it mimics the reaction to the first strike. As for striking full force in sparring, if your body is your fist, if your step is you strike, you have full control, there should be no fear of fully engage movement.
The point . is absolute
Wanderingdragon
Wuji
 
Posts: 6258
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:33 pm
Location: Chgo Il

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:07 pm

this is a straight right.
it shows:

penetration
ability to either displace or knock down
ability to stop someone on contact
can be practiced on a bag
can be used in sparring or in the ring, depends on intent of effect.

can some one high light the differences between it and what is said about
the effects of being hit by a bengquan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPumLDLVZJM
..
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10545
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:11 pm

windwalker wrote:this is a straight right.
it shows:

penetration
ability to either displace or knock down
ability to stop someone on contact
can be practiced on a bag
can be used in sparring or in the ring, depends on intent of effect.

can some one high light the differences between it and what is said about
the effects of being hit by a bengquan



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPumLDLVZJM
..

I agree. I described Tyson's jab, straight right at :35 of your video, before (see below).

Following comments are based on physics, biomechanics, studies, current methods (e.g., throwing [releasing] MLB, NFL, etc.) and striking measurement equipment (measured as Franklin [f] or Newtons [n]).

Different views are welcome (e.g., internal, etc.).

Graham wrote:Notice that in Bengquan the two fists cross over the top of each other, rather than being unconnected, and on different sides of the body.

. . . On a deeper level, the whole action of Bengquan is formed by the opening and closing of the body to move the arms. The section where the hands end up just in front of the body (meeting in the middle) is the ‘close’ part, the section where one hand punches out and the other retracts to the hip is the ‘open’ part.

Jab, straight right does, too.

Graham wrote:In Bengquan you step as you punch. You don’t land your feet, then punch, or punch without stepping.

Jab, straight right can, too.

Landing feet, then punching (releasing) generates more power. Major league baseball and NFL use kinetic chain and landing foot first, then throw (release) to generate more power.

Graham wrote:Notice that his back foot stays connected to the floor for a comparatively long time for a stepping-in punch. He’s keeping that ground connection for a long, long time.

Jab, straight right's "back foot stays connected to the floor" longer than in your beng quan GIF. Notice the back foot is off the ground at the moment of impact. This beng quan is analagous to boxing's "shift punching:"
Image

Gennady Golovkin shift punching:
Image

Graham wrote:I believe that part of the purpose of this footwork is to aid a key feature that makes a Bengquan different to a regular straight punch – that is its ability to penetrate deeply into the target.

If you track the path of the fist in this example, it is on a slightly upward but mainly forward trajectory, like an arrow being shot from a bow. It goes right through the target in a straight line.

Not different. Jab, straight often uses stepping and "goes right through the target in a straight line," too:
marvin8 wrote:This Mike Tyson vs Francois Botha clip is used to give a rough description of a kinetic chain punch sequence. Note that Mike's jab, slipping (defensive move) and loading of right rear hip takes the place of Consterdine's first hip action:
Image

Mike has excellent separation between his stages of the kinetic chain. Mike takes small steps towards Botha. He feints a left jab (ward off) drawing Botha to slip inside and counter with an overhand right (typical counter to jab). This brings Mike's shoulders to a 90 degree angle to Botha. Mike slips (yields) to the right (loading his rear right hip by closing it), avoiding Botha's potential overhand right. Before Mike touches his left foot down he rotates his hips, transferring his weight to his left front hip. After he has rotated his hips a full 90 degrees, he then rotates his shoulders. After he rotates his shoulders a full 90 degrees and finally releases his punch.

Less successful boxers tend to rotate their hips and shoulders together.


Excerpts from similar discussion, https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... a&start=75:
marvin8 wrote:Kinetic chain in baseball:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGDlwhITEp8

marvin8 wrote:Excerpts from "Kinematic and kinetic analysis of throwing a straight punch: the role of trunk
rotation in delivering a powerful straight punch," https://efsupit.ro/images/stories/30dec ... %20287.pdf:
RAT TONG-IAM1, PORNTHEP RACHANAVY2, CHAIPAT LAWSIRIRAT on December 08, 2017 wrote:The result showed straight punches had 3 stages, i.e., (1) starting position, (2) lead toe off, and (3) lead toe in. The results suggested that the final stage, lead toe in, was the most important in delivering powerful straight punches, and boxers used trunk rotation to transform vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force....

Image

At this stage, boxers used the lead leg as a pivot point and executed straight punches such that only lead leg supported the body weight and the rear leg bore no GRF. At this stage, GRF of the rear leg decreased, while GRF of the lead leg increased, which was exactly opposite from the starting position or the first stage. From Figure 1d, the directions of GRF of the lead leg and punch force were not in the same direction. As a result, the participants utilized the lead leg as a break to stabilize their movement.... As seen in Figure 2, the kinetic chain of straight punches occurred after 70% of total punching time meaning that the whole kinetic chain was created and ended at this final stage....

Trunk Rotation in Straight Punches
Image

Image

Image
Figure 1 shows phases of straight punches and GRFs for both legs.

Trunk rotation played significant role in transferring kinetic chain from the lower extremity to the upper extremity. Our results showed that the trunk was relatively unmoved at the beginning of punching as shown in Figure 2. The movement of trunk started approximately after 70% of total punching time (the right panel of Figure 2). The angular velocity tended to increase after this point. The participants, then, sped up trunk rotation after 80% of total punching time until impact.

The trunk rotation played crucial role in LTI or the final stage of punching. At LTI, the displacement angle of trunk rotation was greatest (at 80% of punching time). Angular velocity of trunk rotation increased as GRF of the lead leg increased while GRF of the rear leg decreased. The lead leg acted as a pivot point, while the rear leg pushed the trunk and the whole body of boxers forward to create punching momentum and, thus, punch force. Therefore, trunk rotation mechanically transferred vertical ground reaction forces to horizontal punching force. The peak angular velocity of trunk rotation was achieved at impact....

Image

The final stage, which was lead toe in, was crucial in delivering powerful force.

Now with the clips and study, would you agree that, with the straight punch, "punch and foot land at the same time" generates less power than "foot first and then punch after that (properly sequenced kinetic chain punch)?" If not, what part of the clips or study do you disagree with?
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:49 pm

Hmm, I don't do xingyi, but tcc (Yang, but also Sun) has a similar punch (chui). I'd say that the major difference between the boxer's straight right and a beng quan is that the former is "overhand," the shoulder is high, and the target is generally the head. Otoh, the beng quan is "underhand," the shoulder is low, and the target is the center of the opponent's chest.

Tyson is an interesting subject, but he generates power using a very specific style (sometimes called the D'Amato shift). His power leg and hand change because he'll move and turn from one side to the other. '

However, my point is that it will make a big difference if we compare a beng quan to a straight right or an upper cut with the left foot forward as opposed to considering it more like a lunging jab. I mean, a jab is a thrust. Of course, the boxer's left jab is supported by a waist twist that causes the right hand to go back. The mechanics, imv, are just not similar.

What could be tested is impact force on a measuring device. The only thing that needs to be consistent is the point of contact. Sure, it's artificial, and doesn't measure the "internal." Otoh, this is all for fun, no? It doesn't matter if the mechanics are different. Besides, "it's power only matters if it hits yer."

At his best, Tyson's defense put him perfect position for offense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88dPVSgi_sQ

His movement is diagonal and not linear.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21137
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby johnwang on Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:22 pm

Let's look at how many different ways that you can throw a straight punch.

1. boxing jab - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, punch leading hand.
2. boxing cross - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, punch back hand.
3. step in punch - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, and step in the back leg, punch back hand.

IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

Here is an example of 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O-RPfZ ... e=youtu.be
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:27 am

johnwang wrote:Let's look at how many different ways that you can throw a straight punch.

1. boxing jab - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, punch leading hand.
2. boxing cross - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, punch back hand.
3. step in punch - step in leading leg, put body weight behind it, add body rotation, and step in the back leg, punch back hand.

IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

Here is an example of 3.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O-RPfZIrr4

Your example 3 description "punch back hand" does not match your video of Liu Yun Qiao. Liu Yun Qiao's punch is similar to boxing's step jab to the body. He is punching with lead hand. Can you clarify?

"Punch back hand" (rear hand) with foot landing first is going to generate more power based on the data/videos/studies given.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby johnwang on Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:36 am

marvin8 wrote:Your example 3 description "punch back hand" does not match your video of Liu Yun Qiao. Liu Yun Qiao's punch is similar to boxing's step jab to the body. He is punching with lead hand. Can you clarify?

After you have stepped in, your back hand become your leading hand. The stepping in just switch sides for you.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:39 am

Has anyone here ever seen beng
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:45 am

johnwang wrote:IMO, 3 > 2 > 1
marvin8 wrote:Your example 3 description "punch back hand" does not match your video of Liu Yun Qiao. Liu Yun Qiao's punch is similar to boxing's step jab to the body. He is punching with lead hand. Can you clarify?

After you have stepped in, your back hand become your leading hand. The stepping in just switch sides for you.

So, can your elaborate on how your "leading hand" generates more power than your "back hand?"
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests

cron