What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

[everything]

Bao and GrahamB, yeah that cross-over usage of spear/emptyhand is exactly what I was wondering and good to know it's practically true from your experience.

I think that's one thing that's so attractive (theoretically) about xingyi to me. Same with FMA. If I wanted to get better at MA or got lost in super secret agent fantasy, I'd prefer to be somewhat good with improvised weapons from an emergency use pov. If I try to do (what I think is) bengquan with a long broom or stick or whatever, the footwork seems to follow. Kinda like with bowling technique (how the hell else can your feet go if you want to have balance). Messing around with empty hand, this doesn't seem to be the case...maybe that's one reason people experimenting with this stuff a lot a long time ago came up with crazy/creative shit.

[Steve James]

One teacher explained that the connection between xingyi technique, specifically the half step, had everything to do with battle formations. The spearmen would line up in a row and half-step forward to push the opposition back or hold them back. His argument was that it wasn't a method of single combat, but that the body method could be applied empty handed.

[Yeung]

One teacher explained that the connection between xingyi technique, specifically the half step, had everything to do with battle formations. The spearmen would line up in a row and half-step forward to push the opposition back or hold them back. His argument was that it wasn't a method of single combat, but that the body method could be applied empty handed.

In Xingyiquan, people do learn to use the half step forward with the front leg and half a step backward with the rear leg before the do the 5 element linking fist routine. But most teachers seem not to teach the rear step backward. I do not think spearmen need to do the half steps, they will just push with the rear leg and step forward.

[Steve James]

I do not think spearmen need to do the half steps, they will just push with the rear leg and step forward.

Well, his point was that the spear as an offensive military weapon was strongest when large formations used them uniformly. This strategy as well as the half-step forward was used by Spartans and Romans. Half-stepping back was a method of organized retreat in a defensive formation. I'm no military historian, but when hundreds of guys are carrying spears, they need to be very organized to avoid injuring each other.

The translation to xingyi was in applying the particular body method to empty-hand combat. However, the use of the spear and/or pole-training has never been unique to xingyi. yet, not all utilize the half-step or use it the same way. I can't imagine a hundred men doing tcc together.

[Bao]

Well, his point was that the spear as an offensive military weapon was strongest when large formations used them uniformly. This strategy as well as the half-step forward was used by Spartans and Romans. Half-stepping back was a method of organized retreat in a defensive formation. I'm no military historian, but when hundreds of guys are carrying spears, they need to be very organized to avoid injuring each other.

Seems reasonable.

Weapon forms were probably invented before the empty hand forms. And large battle formations was probably also the reason why weapons forms were invented. The attacking patterns of the different weapons must be coordinated from the view of the formation so they don't interfere with each other. The idea was that the weapons must work like cogs. And obviously, the footwork is also an essential part to make it all work.



"Qi Jiguang's 'mandarin duck formation' in standby and combat. It consisted of two teams of five, one leader, and one porter. Each team consisted of one swordsman who was the leader, one wolf brush soldier, two pikemen, and one trident soldier."




"A marching column contained sixteen 'mandarin duck formations' divided into four platoons. Three platoons stand in the front, left, and right individually to protect the middle platoon, which consisted of musketeers."

[Yeung]

There was claim of the application of Xingyiquan to bayonet by Huang Bo Nian 黄柏年 who taught bayonet in 1931, and written a book on Xingyiquan and Weaponry which has been translated to English.

[Steve James]

The spear tactics for warfare are relatively consistent across many cultures.
The Macedonians, for ex.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http ... nx.jpg&f=1

But, my point is the need for coordinated movement.

[Trick]

So now the XYQ footwork is for gang fighting ??, if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??

[Bao]

if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??

Why do you think so?

[Trick]

if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??

Why do you think so?

Notice the ? mark(and you just quoted half the post)I’m asking, but actually not really, because I certainly don’t believe the theory that XYQ bufa derive from spear armed armies battle formations......

[Bao]

if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??

Why do you think so?

Notice the ? mark(and you just quoted half the post)I’m asking, but actually not really, because I certainly don’t believe the theory that XYQ bufa derive from spear armed armies battle formations......

It would be wrong to say one single cause. Things obviously develops with time for various reasons and changes for others. Hard to tell the main reasons for a lot of things.

[GrahamB]

"Trick wrote:
if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??
"

That's an interesting question.

Obviously, if you drop the XingYi way of doing something you're not really doing XY anymore...

One way of looking at the evolution of Yi Quan is that it's taken the XingYi base, but dropped the weapons-orientated body methods in favour of what works best barehand. Compare Yi Quan footwork to XingYi footwork, for instance. You could say it's more optimised for barehand fighting.

[Disclaimer: The Yi Quan-style footwork always existed within XingYi of course (in the animal methods) but it is not emphasised as the main stepping style within the 5 elements. ]

[marvin8]

if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??

That's an interesting question.

Obviously, if you drop the XingYi way of doing something you're not really doing XY anymore...

One way of looking at the evolution of Yi Quan is that it's taken the XingYi base, but dropped the weapons-orientated body methods in favour of what works best barehand. Compare Yi Quan footwork to XingYi footwork, for instance. You could say it's more optimised for barehand fighting.

[Disclaimer: The Yi Quan-style footwork always existed within XingYi of course (in the animal methods) but it is not emphasised as the main stepping style within the 5 elements. ]

Can anyone post a video of "a man on man fight" (against another style) using the "XingYi footwork" to perform bengquan as in the OP clip (e.g., back foot slides up to shorten the stance, using drive and momentum of XingYi stepping) that is "different to a straight punch?"

[Trick]

if you consider a man on man fight you can skip the XYQ bufa practice??

That's an interesting question.

Obviously, if you drop the XingYi way of doing something you're not really doing XY anymore...

One way of looking at the evolution of Yi Quan is that it's taken the XingYi base, but dropped the weapons-orientated body methods in favour of what works best barehand. Compare Yi Quan footwork to XingYi footwork, for instance. You could say it's more optimised for barehand fighting.

[Disclaimer: The Yi Quan-style footwork always existed within XingYi of course (in the animal methods) but it is not emphasised as the main stepping style within the 5 elements. ]

Can anyone post a video of "a man on man fight" (against another style) using the "XingYi footwork" to perform bengquan as in the OP clip (e.g., back foot slides up to shorten the stance, using drive and momentum of XingYi stepping) that is "different to a straight punch?"

The stepping might be long or short, importance is the timing and coordination of the step/feet with the arms/fist. There is a visualization of incoming force and one must time and react on that force with ones forward force…Its very much an exercise on the sense of timing which is to take further in sparring……………Its easy to get stuck up with power generation issues and theories of tactical footwork stuff, which of course is there too………YiQuan was mentioned, there is the very same visualization in its practice.

[marvin8]

That's an interesting question.

Obviously, if you drop the XingYi way of doing something you're not really doing XY anymore...

One way of looking at the evolution of Yi Quan is that it's taken the XingYi base, but dropped the weapons-orientated body methods in favour of what works best barehand. Compare Yi Quan footwork to XingYi footwork, for instance. You could say it's more optimised for barehand fighting.

[Disclaimer: The Yi Quan-style footwork always existed within XingYi of course (in the animal methods) but it is not emphasised as the main stepping style within the 5 elements. ]

Can anyone post a video of "a man on man fight" (against another style) using the "XingYi footwork" to perform bengquan as in the OP clip (e.g., back foot slides up to shorten the stance, using drive and momentum of XingYi stepping) that is "different to a straight punch?"

The stepping might be long or short, importance is the timing and coordination of the step/feet with the arms/fist. There is a visualization of incoming force and one must time and react on that force with ones forward force…Its very much an exercise on the sense of timing which is to take further in sparring……………Its easy to get stuck up with power generation issues and theories of tactical footwork stuff, which of course is there too………YiQuan was mentioned, there is the very same visualization in its practice.

Can you post a video of "a man on man fight" (against another style) using "long or short stepping and the timing and coordination of the step/feet with the arms/fist" as in the OP clip that is "different to a straight punch?"