What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

[Bao]

But "a straight punch" only refers to the alignment of arm and fist. It doesn't reveal anything about the body behind it.

Depends on who's doing the explaining.

If a XY practitioner and a western boxer would describe it differently, then do you believe that there would be different?

[marvin8]

But "a straight punch" only refers to the alignment of arm and fist. It doesn't reveal anything about the body behind it.

Depends on who's doing the explaining.

If a XY practitioner and a western boxer would describe it differently, then do you believe that there would be different?

In general, explanation of straight punch:

Xing Yi — Beng chuan: front foot and hand arrive at the same time.
Karate — reverse punch: front foot arrives first, then punch. Hip and shoulders rotate together.
Boxing — straight or cross: front foot arrives first, then punch. Hip and shoulders rotate sequentially.

Excerpts from "Xingyi stepping vs. karate stepping," http://www.wayofleastresistance.net/201 ... pping.html:

The biggest difference in xingyi punching is that the punch lands with the leading foot - not the back. While this seems like a small matter, the context in which xingyi places the punch is almost always opposite in karate. This means it takes the karateka quite some "unlearning" to understand how to effect the xingyi beng quan (the punch that is one of the 5 elements of xingyi). . . .

Karateka will overwhelmingly time their punch so that it coincides with the back foot slide-up, where xingyi requires you to land your technique with the lunge of the front foot and no later.

Karateka are specifically taught to practise their basic stepping and punching in a way that is opposite to xingyi. In karate basics you step first, then punch.

In xingyi there is a backward-weighted stance, usually called the san ti posture or zhan bu (battle stance). This is similar to the Japanese kokutsu dachi, but with the hips turned forward (yet another thing to which karateka find difficulty adjusting). . . .

As I've noted, you have to step and punch at precisely the same time. This type of stepping is used in xingyi partly because you have a backward-weighted stance, which requires you to harness as much of the forward momentum as possible in delivering your punch (you can't rely on your weight shifting to your front leg).

In xingyi stepping you still use staged activation, but the emphasis is much more on harnessing the forward momentum of your body than on sequentially activating the hip, then the shoulder then the arm etc. In other words, staged activation is assumed, with the emphasis shifting to flow (as I discuss in my article "The importance of flow").

The assumption of staged activation is just one reason why I regard the internal arts as more "advanced"; they take as a given body mechanics that take years to develop, focusing instead on other, subtler and more sophisticated mechanics built on the foundation of what has been assumed. The xingyi concept of flow would be a prime example of this: I personally don't think it is applicable in combat unless you understand the principles of staged activation used in the basic karate-type step/punch (at least, I don't think it is readily applicable). However it is true to say that the xingyi approach goes beyond the karate technique in harnessing the whole of your forward momentum. Ideally one should learn both, progressing from the step, then punch, and adding the internal arts "flow" when the time is right (see my discussion on "sequential relativism" in my article "The importance of flow").


An excellent example of xingyi stepping/striking

I make these observations about stepping because I'm fairly sure that many martial arts practitioners - karate, xingyi or otherwise - have given very little thought to how they time their steps and strikes. Consider the following example of beng quan and you'll see what I mean:

An example of how not to do xingyi stepping

[Bao]

Xing Yi — Beng chuan: foot and hand arrive at the same time

I would rather state that the center arrive at the same time.

What Dan writes is a limited description for a very basic level. The fist can be coordinated with the rear leg and it can come from a stationary position. What is important is how the fist is coordinated with the center and supported by the body upon impact.

[Trick]

[





I even struggle with many hsing-i practitioners. The only ones that I have found that are relevant have been the ones that felt like they could demolish me with one or two hits. Unfortunately there are not a lot of them but the ones who I did find did not use boxing mechanics.

The topic of this thread is Bengquan and straight punch, which I replied to. If you want to discuss one inch punch, you might start another thread.

As I mentioned, boxing has short range punches. When in grappling range, other moves may be more effective other than striking, which is off the thread topic.

. Beng done at a close distance is the embodiment of An Jing. It is why it is hidden. There is no separation of one inch punch from beng (or any of the 5 elements). It is short power done right which is what makes it hidden.

How do we know for sure good experienced boxers do not possess this quality. Have we been around to respected boxing gyms to let their top class boxers one inch/short range gut punch us without gloves ? …… I’m for sure not up for that experiment so I wouldn’t know.

[MaartenSFS]

This is a pretty good demonstration of the five fists. His linking movements can be messy at times and some of his punches don't extend far enough (something that I tend to be guilty of at times as well), but his strikes are crisp and with good power. Definitely one of the better examples. Not all Xingyiquan looks identical to this, however, and many variations exist - not to mention Xinyiliuhequan. I believe that you are making some broad generalisations due to a lack of experience with many different masters of Xingyiquan and the other arts mentioned, which also have many variations.

[marvin8]

This is a pretty good demonstration of the five fists. His linking movements can be messy at times and some of his punches don't extend far enough (something that I tend to be guilty of at times as well), but his strikes are crisp and with good power. Definitely one of the better examples. Not all Xingyiquan looks identical to this, however, and many variations exist - not to mention Xinyiliuhequan. I believe that you are making some broad generalisations due to a lack of experience with many different masters of Xingyiquan and the other arts mentioned, which also have many variations.

It is not me. It is Graham's definition of Xingyi’s Bengquan (as well as every other source that I have heard). I replied to Graham's OP on Xingyi’s Bengquan.

Excerpt from the OP article, "What makes Xingyi’s Bengquan different to a normal straight punch?," https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... ght-punch/:

The next thing I’d look at is the footwork. in Bengquan you step as you punch. You don’t land your feet, then punch, or punch without stepping. The step is an integral part of the movement. It’s part of the opening and closing of the body and part of the technique. In Xingyi your feet should always be moving.

Excerpts from "Xingyi stepping vs. karate stepping," http://www.wayofleastresistance.net/201 ... pping.html:

An excellent example of xingyi stepping/striking

I make these observations about stepping because I'm fairly sure that many martial arts practitioners - karate, xingyi or otherwise - have given very little thought to how they time their steps and strikes. Consider the following example of beng quan and you'll see what I mean:

An example of how not to do xingyi stepping

Since, you are arguing Graham's, Dan's, Master Yang Hai's and other's definition of Xingyi's Bengquan stepping "due to a lack of experience with many different masters of Xingyiquan," please name the Xingyiquan "master(s)" that varies from front foot and hand arrives at the same time.

[D_Glenn]

Well, as the premise of the original article states, if we suspend the idea of using the spine / Bolangjin, which makes up for 99 percent of the difference between xingyi and boxing power, and only look at the other aspects. Stepping doesn’t matter because you could do beng while standing in place. My teacher taught me that all 5 should be done while standing in 5 different heights. Bengquan is done using the lowest stance of the five. Bengquan should be linked to your sacrum and slightly above it as it’s going out, so it’s also striking low. These combined will ideally hit a lower target on the opponent to hit the center door (rupture their bladder), side door will try to split the pelvic bones. But just hitting below the opponent’s Center of gravity is what gives beng its name. Since boxing doesn’t allow hitting below the belt, it’s hard to find the comparative power. Bengquan is more ‘straight’ power, instead of rotational power lke Heng. So really, the only thing to compare, is about establishing a strong line of force/connection between your hand and your sacrum, at the moment of contact, which is relatively close to your body, hence hitting a target that’s lower on the opponent’s body. And I think to find a comparison to that power you will need to look at the mechanics of how some boxers execute an upper cut.

[Steve James]

For me, the idea of comparison is completely valid. But, my critique of the premise is that the comparison has to be between specific punches, not just "straight" punches. Straight just means linear. The alternative is circular in some direction. So, there are lots of ways to punch "straight," even in western boxing. However, is bengquan considered linear or circular? Yeh, I know. It's the internet, so the answer is both. But, the point is that the "path" of any punch can always be described as more linear or curved. At any rate, afa I'm concerned, those vectors are the only ones I need to prepare for.

Anyway, so is your bengquan primarily linear or circular?

[D_Glenn]

The path of Bengquan is straight/ linear but begins to arc upward as it’s following through. When I wrote ‘straight vs rotational I mean that it doesn’t rely on the rotation of the hips, waist or shoulders, since it’s hitting the opponent well before those could even factor into it.
“It is said that if you want to beat your opponent, you must be close enough to seem as if you want to kiss him.” Lu Shengli, Zhang Jun (translation of a Xingyi classic)
Which is why I think an uppercut is a better analogy and you can actually look at Bengquan as a longer horizontal uppercut.

[marvin8]

Well, as the premise of the original article states, if we suspend the idea of using the spine / Bolangjin, which makes up for 99 percent of the difference between xingyi and boxing power, and only look at the other aspects. Stepping doesn’t matter because you could do beng while standing in place. My teacher taught me that all 5 should be done while standing in 5 different heights. Bengquan is done using the lowest stance of the five. Bengquan should be linked to your sacrum and slightly above it as it’s going out, so it’s also striking low. These combined will ideally hit a lower target on the opponent to hit the center door (rupture their bladder), side door will try to split the pelvic bones. But just hitting below the opponent’s Center of gravity is what gives beng its name. Since boxing doesn’t allow hitting below the belt, it’s hard to find the comparative power. Bengquan is more ‘straight’ power, instead of rotational power lke Heng. So really, the only thing to compare, is about establishing a strong line of force/connection between your hand and your sacrum, at the moment of contact, which is relatively close to your body, hence hitting a target that’s lower on the opponent’s body. And I think to find a comparison to that power you will need to look at the mechanics of how some boxers execute an upper cut.

Thanks. Front or rear uppercut?

I would describe a proper rear uppercut as:

1. rear kua and shoulders at 90° to 180°, back foot at 45° to 90° angle, close rear kua, front foot pointing towards opponent's center, hand in guard position.
2. open rear kua, rotate back foot back on ball of foot 45° to 90° pointing forwards transferring weight to front foot (Note: head is moving from right to left, which can be a simultaneous defense [slip]/offense [uppercut]) while kua is rotating 90° to 180°, then shoulders are rotating 90° to 180°, close front kua, front foot planted, then release uppercut.

Here is a video explaining the rear uppercut:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyy7k1jX_sA

[D_Glenn]

I think if you look at that video and think of it as bringing both hips square to the opponent, so that the sacrum is centered and the elbow and forearm sort of aligned with it. In my style of Baguazhang we call the Bengquan power ‘Ting Li’ (upright power), which is the ability to align the path to point/ connect back to the base of the spine (sacrum) and have an upright strength in the whole spinal column so that it’s solid. I guess you could say that Boxing is only primarily using a Ting Li (an uppercut is only ting li) type of power, but in the Chinese systems, it’s only one of 5 or 6 ways to power an attack.

[marvin8]

I think if you look at that video and think of it as bringing both hips square to the opponent, so that the sacrum is centered and the elbow and forearm sort of aligned with it. In my style of Baguazhang we call the Bengquan power ‘Ting Li’ (upright power), which is the ability to align the path to point/ connect back to the base of the spine (sacrum) and have an upright strength in the whole spinal column so that it’s solid. I guess you could say that Boxing is only primarily using a Ting Li (an uppercut is only ting li) type of power, but in the Chinese systems, it’s only one of 5 or 6 ways to power an attack.

I edited my post: "while kua is rotating 90° to 180°, then shoulders are rotating 90° to 180°, close front kua."

There can be a delay in hip and shoulder rotation. Also, the hips and shoulders end up around 45° to 90° to opponent (even though rotating 90° to 180°), not "square." This would be considered using the kinetic chain.

Rear uppercut performed in real fight:

[Steve James]

I wasn't arguing to your point D.Glenn. I would say, that some uppercuts are straighter than others. From "my" tcc perspective, for ex., I can't say there is any strike that doesn't need some type of rotation. However, I would describe the punch in "step forward, deflect downward, parry, punch" as a straight punch because the punches, for ex., in "Strike Tiger" or "Punch Temples" are definitely circular.

In my old school's push hands, the first strike starts when the opponent is close and it aims for under the opponent's chin. It could be described as an uppercut, but it's unlike a boxing uppercut --if only because of the orientation of the hand (palm facing body). Anyway, I could describe it as an uppercut, but it's a straight (diagonally forward) strike.

Btw, I am not arguing that Bengquan is more or less like an upper cut.

[D_Glenn]

I didn’t think you were. I was just trying to clarify some things.

The forces I’m trying to describe are hard to convey or get across. Even in person.

They’re distinct ways of utilizing the torso and body. If you can identify them as five distinct things, then you can understand how everything else is comprised of 1-3 of them.
Maybe this will work- Bengquan- imagine that you’re pressing your forehead into someone’s palm, where you have to, lock into place, your whole spine, angle it forward and use the base of the spine to do the pressing since it’s the strongest
All of these are locking the spine to the sacrum or waist (Dantian). Another power would be #2- pressing and rotating your head to the right while someone’s palmis pushing against your right cheek #3 turning your head back to the center while they are pushing against you left cheek. #4 trying to pull your head down towards your chest while they’re pressing up against your chin. #5 is pressing your head upward against a palm on top of your head, which is the only one thst also requires the sacrum’s connection to the pelvis and legs.
So an uppercut of the rear hand would be mostly #1 and a little #5, and even less #3.

Front hand uppercut would #5, #1, and a tad bit of #2

.
Edit— found and older post on the same topic https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11528&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=6b93a50da7db1ae56d2ce6372323f4f8

[windwalker]

Interesting reading the post, what is lacking as usual are clips showing it in use.

Jack Dempsey writes about:

"THE POWER LINE RUNS FROM EITHER
SHOULDER-STRAIGHT DOWN THE LENGTH OF
THE ARM TO THE FIST KNUCKLE OF THE LITTLE
FINGER, when the fist is doubled. Remember: The
power line ends in the fist knuckle of the little finger
on either hand."

More importantly this was shown in usage which with all the many theories talked about, except for the clips of boxing none of it is shown in usage for comparison.

Edited: why is it with internal Arts people are always asked to imagine, told they must feel, but never shown.

When shown often not believing, but will do so when it's written down.