What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:50 pm

In a nutshell- in a normal strike/punch (chongji li), the bones of the hand move faster than the flesh that’s attached to the bones of the arm, shoulder, and torso, so at the point of contact it’s only the bones that hit, as once the flesh catches up, the opponent has already moved away or the hand is already being pulled back. In a strike using fajin there is a simultaneous abrupt movement of the Dantian (waist, abdomen, tailbone and lumbar spine) that starts the flesh moving from the torso up through the shoulder out the arm and down to the hand, this results in the bones and the flesh hitting the opponent at the same time.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:58 pm

Btw, thanks for making that gif. That’s awesome.

On that gif, note how his very first strike has very little, how it sort of seems hollow when compared to the following strikes. This is called ‘dying on the vine’. It’s a common problem that affects everyone. In the beginning you might have 9 strikes die on the vine and only your tenth strike makes it out. The goal is to have your very first strike (from cold) be just as powerful as your tenth.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:47 pm

D_Glenn wrote:In a nutshell- in a normal strike/punch (chongji li), the bones of the hand move faster than the flesh that’s attached to the bones of the arm, shoulder, and torso, so at the point of contact it’s only the bones that hit, as once the flesh catches up, the opponent has already moved away or the hand is already being pulled back.

Can you explain how or why "the bones of the hand move faster than the flesh" and "it’s only the bones that hit" in the boxing punch and tai chi twist step?

D_Glenn wrote:In a strike using fajin there is a simultaneous abrupt movement of the Dantian (waist, abdomen, tailbone and lumbar spine) that starts the flesh moving from the torso up through the shoulder out the arm and down to the hand, this results in the bones and the flesh hitting the opponent at the same time.

This is similar to the boxing punch and tai chi twist step. In the kinetic chain, "there is a simultaneous abrupt movement of the waist," hips, torso, etc., which leads the shoulders, then hand, sequentially (delay). The bengquan GIF appears to similarly show the hips leading shoulders (delay).

What evidence do you have that "the bones and the flesh hitting the opponent at the same time" occur with bengquan, but not with boxing's straight or tai chi's twist step?
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:55 pm

Just watch high speed videos (1000fps or higher), of people punching bags and such. They’re using chongji li. I doubt that there’s any of someone doing it using a proper fajin but there probably will be some coming down the pipeline.

The kinetic chain doesn’t matter, all that does is support the movement better. The hand will still be pulling away from the flesh.

In order to fajin you have to be doing two separate movements at the same time. Kind of like ‘patting your head and rubbing your belly’. It’s two distinct skills and mechanisms that you have to learn and then learn to synchronize them, and then get them to move in proper harmony.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:56 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Just watch high speed videos (1000fps or higher), of people punching bags and such. They’re using chongji li. I doubt that there’s any of someone doing it using a proper fajin but there probably will be some coming down the pipeline.

Why do you "doubt that there is video of anyone" (e.g., xingyi) using fajin in punching a bag or sparring? What do you mean by "there probably will be some coming down the pipeline."

I appreciate your explanations. However, you are making conclusions/statements without saying how you derived them. I don't believe you answered the questions:

Can you explain (e.g., biomechanically, etc.) "what makes this bengquan vastly more effective than boxing" or tai chi's twist step? What do you mean by "vastly more effective?" How did you conclude this?

What evidence do you have that "the bones and the flesh hitting the opponent at the same time" occur with bengquan, but not with boxing's straight or tai chi's twist step?
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:19 pm

Please read my reply more carefully.

A) I said there are likely no videos of xingyi, or anyone doing a proper fajin, while being filmed with a high speed camera that takes images at more than one thousand frames per second.

B) refer back to my in a nutshell description, as per the biomechanics of a fajin I have numerous posts on here. Just search this site for “Bolangjin”.

C) the only evidence is what you see when someone does a proper fajin. It doesn’t have to be bq. I practice Baguazhang and I can do it in every technique I do, a 100+ different strikes. The feeling of the movement of your own flesh coordinating/ or not harmonizing with the movement of the bones is how you learn- by getting the immediate feedback on whether it’s making its way out to the point of contact. That also leads into short power (pulse) or long power ( a wave); hard power (the flesh is kept taut, or soft ( the flesh is left relaxed.

There’s a saying, it’s about hard/ external styles (of which boxing is a prime example) versus Internal styles of martial arts: ‘a hard style has relatively easier strikes to learn. The power mechanisms are self intuitive. Power will come easy but it relies on the raw physical strength of youth. Internal arts have strikes/ techniques that are very difficult to learn and even harder to get power in, but once learned, the power will steadily increase throughout one’s whole lifetime.’
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:11 am

D_Glenn wrote:Please read my reply more carefully.

A) I said there are likely no videos of xingyi, or anyone doing a proper fajin, while being filmed with a high speed camera that takes images at more than one thousand frames per second.

Why is it "unlikely" that there are any videos showing the effects of "xingyi, or anyone doing a proper fajin" against a punching bag or opponent (sparring/fighting), regardless the speed of camera?

D_Glenn wrote:B) refer back to my in a nutshell description, as per the biomechanics of a fajin I have numerous posts on here. Just search this site for “Bolangjin”.

I mentioned I appreciate your "nutshell descriptions" and read your other posts, including https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15824&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=80bf27c9dc7d8e45e1a005677106f57a&start=90

However, I still don't believe you answered these questions:
marvin8 wrote:I appreciate your explanations. However, you are making conclusions/statements without saying how you derived them. I don't believe you answered the questions:

Can you explain how or why "the bones of the hand move faster than the flesh" and "it’s only the bones that hit" in the boxing punch and tai chi twist step?

What do you mean by "there probably will be some coming down the pipeline?"

Can you explain (e.g., biomechanically, etc.) "what makes this bengquan vastly more effective than boxing" or tai chi's twist step? What do you mean by "vastly more effective?" How did you conclude this?

What evidence do you have that "the bones and the flesh hitting the opponent at the same time" occur with bengquan, but not with boxing's straight or tai chi's twist step?


D_Glenn wrote:C) the only evidence is what you see when someone does a proper fajin. It doesn’t have to be bq. I practice Baguazhang and I can do it in every technique I do, a 100+ different strikes. The feeling of the movement of your own flesh coordinating/ or not harmonizing with the movement of the bones is how you learn- by getting the immediate feedback on whether it’s making its way out to the point of contact. That also leads into short power (pulse) or long power ( a wave); hard power (the flesh is kept taut, or soft ( the flesh is left relaxed.

In the bengquan clip, I do not "see" the evidence of "the bones of the hand move faster than the flesh."

Why is "the only evidence is what you see when someone does a proper fajin" in the air?
Again, shouldn't there be a video showing the effects of anyone using fajin against a punching bag or opponent?

D_Glenn wrote:There’s a saying, it’s about hard/ external stiyles (of which boxing is a prime example) versus Internal styles of martial arts: ‘a hard style has relatively easier strikes to learn. The power mechanisms are self intuitive. Power will come easy but it relies on the raw physical strength of youth. Internal arts have strikes/ techniques that are very difficult to learn and even harder to get power in, but once learned, the power will steadily increase throughout one’s whole lifetime.’

How do you conclude/derive this about power, through studies, electrodes, striking force measurements, etc., as done with boxing and the biomechanics of Taiji and whole-body power in CIMA? Posted earlier in the thread:
marvin8 wrote:Here is a previous RSF post stating the same about the kinetic chain,
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 0dc8553210:
C.J.W. wrote:There are actually several dissertations on the biomechanics of Taiji and whole-body power in CIMA published by sports scientists in Taiwan that prove fajin is indeed sequential beginning from the feet all the way up to the hands, or moving in a "kinetic chain," as they call it. So there's really no point in debating who's right here.

Using the body as a whip is not slow at all; on the contrary, when done right, it is extremely fast. Tongbei and Pigua are two arts that overtly make use of the long, extended, sequential "whipping" body method, and also known for having lightening fast strikes and footwork.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:06 am

oh dear, this poor thread was doomed from the go.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:58 am

I’m using a phone to post on here, which is difficult to navigate, so let me just focus on one thing at a time. Back to the what I’m saying- I’m talking only about a high speed video. It has to be high speed. 1000 fps or higher. And they’re not really about punching bags but seeing the effects of punching someone’s face or other part of the body. The videos so far, seem to be more concerned with what’s happening in the face and less about the arm that is punching. I’m by no means certain, but I think that someday the Chinese will get around to filming someone doing fajin with a high speed camera.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:50 am

D_Glenn wrote:I’m using a phone to post on here, which is difficult to navigate, so let me just focus on one thing at a time. Back to the what I’m saying- I’m talking only about a high speed video. It has to be high speed. 1000 fps or higher. And they’re not really about punching bags but seeing the effects of punching someone’s face or other part of the body. The videos so far, seem to be more concerned with what’s happening in the face and less about the arm that is punching. I’m by no means certain, but I think that someday the Chinese will get around to filming someone doing fajin with a high speed camera.

Maybe the question is misunderstood. I am asking about seeing the effects on an opponent or punching bag, not the one doing the bengquan.

I posted two clips of Thomas Hearns and Mike Tyson. The effects of their straight punch on opponents and punching bags can be seen with the naked eye. No special cameras needed.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:03 pm

marvin8 wrote: I am asking about seeing the effects on an opponent or punching bag, not the one doing the bengquan.

I have asked this question for the past 10 years. When talking about power generation, it should be easy to film a short clip while striking on a heavy bad, or striking dummy.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:48 pm

There's subtle differences but it's not easy to explain so it's almost begging for ... why bother.

Coming back to the question:

What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

One difference that can be seen but can't be done on a punching bag is the pull back motion of beng. It's a grab and pull back.

So far everyone here is taking about beng as punch to the body or something that helps train coordination. It's that but also has chinna baked in it.

When the lead arm grabs and pulls back the striking arm can also pass the opponents potentially extended elbow, impact it to jar it while on the way to the torso. There's many other subtle applications of beng like this.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Overlord on Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:51 pm

dspyrido wrote:There's subtle differences but it's not easy to explain so it's almost begging for ... why bother.

Coming back to the question:

What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

One difference that can be seen but can't be done on a punching back is the pull back motion of beng. It's a grab and pull back.

So far everyone here is taking about beng as punch to the body or something that helps train coordination. It's that but also has chinna baked in it.

When the lead arm grabs and pulls back the striking arm can also pass the opponents potentially extended elbow, impact it to jar it while on the way to the torso. There's many other subtle applications of beng like this.


This sound similar how the Tangshou Dao in Taiwan apply the chicken beng.
Unfortunately you don’t see it anymore.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:45 pm

dspyrido wrote:There's subtle differences but it's not easy to explain so it's almost begging for ... why bother.

A lot of the differences (e.g., stepping, landing, sliding of back foot, dantian, spine, bows, flesh & bones, pulling, grabbing, etc.) have been explained by dspyrido, GrahamB, D_Glenn, etc. Although, some of the differences may be arguable.

dspyrido wrote:Coming back to the question:

What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

One difference that can be seen but can't be done on a punching back is the pull back motion of beng. It's a grab and pull back.

So far everyone here is taking about beng as punch to the body or something that helps train coordination. It's that but also has chinna baked in it.

When the lead arm grabs and pulls back the striking arm can also pass the opponents potentially extended elbow, impact it to jar it while on the way to the torso. There's many other subtle applications of beng like this.

This is not much of a difference, as the straight can be preceded by a jab or hand trap (pull down guard in boxing or MMA). MMA (an easier example to analyze fighting) has fighters/trainers with experience in Wing Chun, tai chi, etc. MMA does use trapping, hand fighting, grabbing, hand control, etc.

Many times a feint and hit using the opponent's momentum (e.g., walking in) is more effective (e.g., timing, efficient, avoid counters, distance, etc.) than a pull or grab. GrahamB posted a video with Paul talking about some of the problems with bengquan. Also, Trick's posted video showed the Xingyi player demo pulling and grabbing but did not use it in sparring.

The punching bag can be swung to create incoming force/momentum.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:53 pm

marvin8 wrote:This is not much of a difference, as the straight can be preceded by a jab or hand trap (pull down guard in boxing or MMA). MMA (an easier example to analyze fighting) has fighters/trainers with experience in Wing Chun, tai chi, etc. MMA does use trapping, hand fighting, grabbing, hand control, etc.

Many times a feint and hit using the opponent's momentum (e.g., walking in) is more effective (e.g., timing, efficient, avoid counters, distance, etc.) than a pull or grab. GrahamB posted a video with Paul talking about some of the problems with bengquan. Also, Trick's posted video showed the Xingyi player demo pulling and grabbing but did not use it in sparring.

The punching bag can be swung to create incoming force/momentum.


What I'm describing is not trapping. The grab can used to trap but that is not the point. It's chinna & attacks the joint directly.

As for using this beng/chinna move in sparring - I would never use it in sparring because pretty quickly they would stop being my training partner. This is a strike used directly against the joint and is very difficult to limit it. It either misses or does damage.

The thing about xy's range is that it is most effective at close range which is about the distance of the shoulder to elbow tip. Most demos are not done at this range, most sports fights with striking are not conducted at this range and most referees & audiences can't even see what happens at this range. But it is a very real range when considering urban fights.
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