What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:39 am

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:This is not much of a difference, as the straight can be preceded by a jab or hand trap (pull down guard in boxing or MMA). MMA (an easier example to analyze fighting) has fighters/trainers with experience in Wing Chun, tai chi, etc. MMA does use trapping, hand fighting, grabbing, hand control, etc.

Many times a feint and hit using the opponent's momentum (e.g., walking in) is more effective (e.g., timing, efficient, avoid counters, distance, etc.) than a pull or grab. GrahamB posted a video with Paul talking about some of the problems with bengquan. Also, Trick's posted video showed the Xingyi player demo pulling and grabbing but did not use it in sparring.

The punching bag can be swung to create incoming force/momentum.


What I'm describing is not trapping. The grab can used to trap but that is not the point. It's chinna & attacks the joint directly.

As for using this beng/chinna move in sparring - I would never use it in sparring because pretty quickly they would stop being my training partner. This is a strike used directly against the joint and is very difficult to limit it. It either misses or does damage.

I said grabbing, too. "MMA does use trapping, hand fighting, grabbing, hand control, etc. "

If you cannot practice techniques in sparring without control, the chances are it is a low percentage technique that is hard to pull off in a real fight.

If you are speaking of striking joints when the opponent is punching, it is difficult to do when the opponent is moving and retracting their punch, as the mentioned xingyi videos illustrate. Aikido is difficult to perform for similar reasons. BJJ players usually take the opponent to the ground to submit (e.g., joint lock, choke, etc.) to get around the mobility and distance control problems:
marvin8 wrote:GrahamB posted a video with Paul talking about some of the problems with bengquan. Also, Trick's posted video showed the Xingyi player demo pulling and grabbing but did not use it in sparring.


dspyrido wrote:The thing about xy's range is that it is most effective at close range which is about the distance of the shoulder to elbow tip. Most demos are not done at this range, most sports fights with striking are not conducted at this range and most referees & audiences can't even see what happens at this range. But it is a very real range when considering urban fights.

Many demos are done where the opponent freezes their arm in the air while the demonstrator completes a technique—that is difficult if not impossible to do in a real fight.

Many sports fights with BJJ, wrestling, judo, short and ground/pound fighters are conducted at close range, after fighting through the middle and long ranges.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:52 am

dspyrido wrote:There's subtle differences but it's not easy to explain so it's almost begging for ... why bother.

Coming back to the question:

What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

One difference that can be seen but can't be done on a punching bag is the pull back motion of beng. It's a grab and pull back.

So far everyone here is taking about beng as punch to the body or something that helps train coordination. It's that but also has chinna baked in it.

When the lead arm grabs and pulls back the striking arm can also pass the opponents potentially extended elbow, impact it to jar it while on the way to the torso. There's many other subtle applications of beng like this.

This is an rudimentary application for the “hikite”(withdraw/pullback hand/arm) in Karate techniques such as in punching, so in this sense the BQ and the Karate straight punch is the same.……The sameness continue into that the pullback arm also “represent” an incoming force that the striking arm/hand reacts to and “try to arrive first”(its a practice to get the sense of correct timing). What differs between XYQ and Karate is the stepping, but both work on stepping forward/in “at the right time”………one can work on power generation/correct bodily structure all day long, but if the sense of timing is lacking then how much as an combat art is it ?………………Now I’m just back home from a big lunch gathering with quite a lot of Baijiu flowing so please excuse if my English writing is much better than usual……Ganbei. 8-)
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:20 am

marvin8 wrote:
Many times a feint and hit using the opponent's momentum (e.g., walking in) is more effective (e.g., timing, efficient, avoid counters, distance, etc.) than a pull or grab. GrahamB posted a video with Paul talking about some of the problems with bengquan. Also, Trick's posted video showed the Xingyi player demo pulling and grabbing but did not use it in sparring.

The punching bag can be swung to create incoming force/momentum.

Yes a swinging heavybag or the one I like ‘floor to ceiling’ ball are good supplements. In Karate we used to practice the “opponent” make a twitch that resembles the start of an attack that the defender reacts to(counter) usually with a reverse or lead punch, and in this practice the counter punch regarding step and strike coordination resembles the BQ step and strike coordination. In Karate there has not been a lack of experimenting forward “new” practice methods wich I think is due to the sport aspect of it, for better or worse? I actually don’t think for worse. The “traditionalism of XYQ I actually think is a rather “new”thing and not to long time ago practitioners actually where experimenting forward methods that worked for them… So don’t be afraid to explore, it’s probably the traditionaly way to take 8-)
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:38 pm

marvin8 wrote:If you cannot practice techniques in sparring without control, the chances are it is a low percentage technique that is hard to pull off in a real fight.

If you are speaking of striking joints when the opponent is punching, it is difficult to do when the opponent is moving and retracting their punch, as the mentioned xingyi videos illustrate. Aikido is difficult to perform for similar reasons. BJJ players usually take the opponent to the ground to submit (e.g., joint lock, choke, etc.) to get around the mobility and distance control problems:
...
Many sports fights with BJJ, wrestling, judo, short and ground/pound fighters are conducted at close range, after fighting through the middle and long ranges.


Putting joint strikes (not locks) into the aikido bucket when they are taught not to use them as strikes is misguided. Plus drawing on anyone for inspiration who teaches catching a punch is also going to be misguided. As is drawing on bjj, wrestling, judo for short range striking inspiration. Some of these grapplers might know how to strike at close range (especially if they cross train) but it's not a normal part of their standard training curriculum and definitely not in any of their comps.

As for "it's low percentage because it can't be trained in sparring" - hey the 1990s are calling. I'm 100% sure that eye pokes, head butts, biting & groin strikes are not trained in normal sparring but everyone in the ufc knows how nasty they can be when mixed in correctly.

Anyway you missed the point - beng is more than just a punch. Just because you might not know how to use it does not mean it is not useful. Much like any method it requires appropriate setup and timing.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:47 pm

Trick wrote:This is an rudimentary application for the “hikite”(withdraw/pullback hand/arm) in Karate techniques such as in punching, so in this sense the BQ and the Karate straight punch is the same.……The sameness continue into that the pullback arm also “represent” an incoming force that the striking arm/hand reacts to and “try to arrive first”(its a practice to get the sense of correct timing). What differs between XYQ and Karate is the stepping, but both work on stepping forward/in “at the right time”………one can work on power generation/correct bodily structure all day long, but if the sense of timing is lacking then how much as an combat art is it ?………………Now I’m just back home from a big lunch gathering with quite a lot of Baijiu flowing so please excuse if my English writing is much better than usual……Ganbei. 8-)


I think I mentioned it earlier but the real difference lies in the bows. Not in the stepping. Stepping can be varied in all the 5 elements once the bows are understood.

The karate version is normally trained with a straight back and long step. Some version of karate learn it under sanchin and sure some guys adapt it to lean in as well. I haven't seen any karate guy do it with the bows all pistoning together and also without the use of the locked tension that characterises karate. That said - I don't see any patents on XY and there might be karatekas who have worked it out and apply similar principles.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:20 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:If you cannot practice techniques in sparring without control, the chances are it is a low percentage technique that is hard to pull off in a real fight.

If you are speaking of striking joints when the opponent is punching, it is difficult to do when the opponent is moving and retracting their punch, as the mentioned xingyi videos illustrate. Aikido is difficult to perform for similar reasons. BJJ players usually take the opponent to the ground to submit (e.g., joint lock, choke, etc.) to get around the mobility and distance control problems:
...
Many sports fights with BJJ, wrestling, judo, short and ground/pound fighters are conducted at close range, after fighting through the middle and long ranges.


Putting joint strikes (not locks) into the aikido bucket when they are taught not to use them as strikes is misguided. Plus drawing on anyone for inspiration who teaches catching a punch is also going to be misguided.

. . . One difference . . . It's a grab and pull back.

So far everyone here is taking about beng as punch to the body or something that helps train coordination. It's that but also has chinna baked in it.

I didn't. I used the word "similar" (e.g., not "joint strikes"). However, you said, "One difference . . . It's a grab . . . beng . . . has chinna baked in it." Per wikipedia, chin na refers to "joint locks."

I agree with "catching a punch is also going to be misguided," even "If you have drilled catching a punch 1,000,000 times . . ." (pun intended at YouKnowWho).

Joint strike, though not beng:
Image

dspyrido wrote:When the lead arm grabs and pulls back the striking arm can also pass the opponents potentially extended elbow, impact it to jar it while on the way to the torso. There's many other subtle applications of beng like this.

Pull back arm to torso elbow strike, though not beng:
Image

Again:
marvin8 wrote:You have this common theme of arguing my explanations on the straight punch (based on the posted studies and videos) or reading into my statement (implying that I am making statements that I am not) without quoting the specific statements.


dspyrido wrote:As is drawing on bjj, wrestling, judo for short range striking inspiration. Some of these grapplers might know how to strike at close range (especially if they cross train) but it's not a normal part of their standard training curriculum and definitely not in any of their comps.

I don't. You left out "short fighters"/strikers. Many times fighters that are short or not as proficient in middle to long range back their opponent to the ropes or cage to attack. MMA fighters (e.g., boxers, muay thai, sanda, sambo, etc.) fight at close range, too. They use close range tactics and techniques (e.g., clinch, thai plum, underhooks, collar ties, elbow control, wrist control, grabbing, pulling, elbows, knees, punches, trips, etc.).

For most grapplers in today's MMA, strikes are "a normal part of their standard training curriculum and comps."

A problem with "close range . . . when considering urban fights" is one does not know if the opponent is carrying a knife or other weapon.

Controlling distance is a skill and important:
Kenny Weldon wrote:Boxing is the art of hitting an opponent from the furthest distance away, exposing the least amount of your body while getting in position to punch with maximum leverage and not getting hit.


dspyrido wrote:As for "it's low percentage because it can't be trained in sparring" - hey the 1990s are calling. I'm 100% sure that eye pokes, head butts, biting & groin strikes are not trained in normal sparring but everyone in the ufc knows how nasty they can be when mixed in correctly.

Right. And, UFC fighters usually know how to attack joints and vital points more accurately, etc., without specific training.

dspyrido wrote:Anyway you missed the point - beng is more than just a punch. Just because you might not know how to use it does not mean it is not useful. Much like any method it requires appropriate setup and timing.

I didn't. I acknowledged it:
marvin8 wrote:A lot of the differences (e.g., stepping, landing, sliding of back foot, dantian, spine, bows, flesh & bones, pulling, grabbing, etc.) have been explained by dspyrido, GrahamB, D_Glenn, etc. Although, some of the differences may be arguable.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Trick on Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:41 am

dspyrido wrote:
Trick wrote:This is an rudimentary application for the “hikite”(withdraw/pullback hand/arm) in Karate techniques such as in punching, so in this sense the BQ and the Karate straight punch is the same.……The sameness continue into that the pullback arm also “represent” an incoming force that the striking arm/hand reacts to and “try to arrive first”(its a practice to get the sense of correct timing). What differs between XYQ and Karate is the stepping, but both work on stepping forward/in “at the right time”………one can work on power generation/correct bodily structure all day long, but if the sense of timing is lacking then how much as an combat art is it ?………………Now I’m just back home from a big lunch gathering with quite a lot of Baijiu flowing so please excuse if my English writing is much better than usual……Ganbei. 8-)


I think I mentioned it earlier but the real difference lies in the bows. Not in the stepping. Stepping can be varied in all the 5 elements once the bows are understood.

The karate version is normally trained with a straight back and long step. Some version of karate learn it under sanchin and sure some guys adapt it to lean in as well. I haven't seen any karate guy do it with the bows all pistoning together and also without the use of the locked tension that characterises karate. That said - I don't see any patents on XY and there might be karatekas who have worked it out and apply similar principles.

Yes absolutely the bows are fundamentally important for the “XY body” and are worked(consciously)on from the very beginning, while in let’s say Karate it’s something that comes to mind with time or just understood with time subconsciously by the body(best way I could describe for now)? ……Yes As I said, the footwork differs, in Karate for some who has the understanding of the bows the footwork in the basic practice usually can/will not be “flexible”.(Although with the sporting side of Karate Karatekas have been developing/experimenting forward more lively footwork and basic practice methods)…While if got it right together in XYQ the basics can be modeled together in a much more varied way and to the point where it comes together spontaneously, so in this sense XYQ has it traditionally from the very beginning a well rounded basic training method, starting with the Santishi, If taught rightly.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby Fa Xing on Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:31 am

This discussion is funny. While y'all keep discussing this, I'm just going to keep practicing xingyiquan and punch people with a straight punch, landing my hand and foot at the same time.

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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:44 pm

If you have trained XingYi, Baji, long fist, when you punch on the heavy bag, will you use XingYi method, Baji method, long fist method, or your method which is a mix of all 3? After all, it's your punch that fit for your body.

I like to

- step out (move from side door into front door, or move from front door into side door), and
- downward parry (this will stretch my body to the maximum) before the punch,

that I have learned from long fist and apply on XingYi Beng Chuan. So my XingYi Beng Chuan is not pure.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:35 pm

marvin8 wrote: Per wikipedia, chin na refers to "joint locks."


If wikipedia is the extent of where you get your foundations from then I understand your posts.

As I said before - no one has a patent on any moves. MMA guys are just mixed martial artists who cross train. And guys who do xy can also be mma guys. I'm one and get ring craft, timing, short vs. long, grappling, ground and pound, subs etc etc. I also know that in trying to teach guys who dont get xy what benefits it can attain is like talking to a brick wall.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:39 pm

johnwang wrote:If you have trained XingYi, Baji, long fist, when you punch on the heavy bag, will you use XingYi method, Baji method, long fist method, or your method which is a mix of all 3? After all, it's your punch that fit for your body.

I like to

- step out (move from side door into front door, or move from front door into side door), and
- downward parry (this will stretch my body to the maximum) before the punch,

that I have learned from long fist and apply on XingYi Beng Chuan. So my XingYi Beng Chuan is not pure.


I've boxed, Mt & WC. When shadow boxing and bag work it all gets mixed. I also dont pay attention to where I learnt a strike but what feels and works better. These days it's not the punch type or power that counts but the best way to setup and deliver it.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:01 pm

dspyrido wrote:I've boxed, Mt & WC. When shadow boxing and bag work it all gets mixed. I also dont pay attention to where I learnt a strike but what feels and works better. These days it's not the punch type or power that counts but the best way to setup and deliver it.

Also when I throw a roundhouse kick on my heavy bag, I truly don't know that I was using the long fist method, TKD method, or MT method.

What's the difference between the SC hip throw and the Judo hip throw? As long as you can make it work, you truly don't care the original.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:19 pm

dspyrido wrote: I also know that in trying to teach guys who dont get xy what benefits it can attain is like talking to a brick wall.


Why would they want to learn something without either feeling or seeing results. In this whole post there are no clips of results being shown used. There are clips of training and lots of commentary about what's going on but no usage in the ring.

Conversely examples showing other arts are almost all examples of usage in the ring.

It's the exact opposite.
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:27 pm

johnwang wrote:
Also when I throw a roundhouse kick on my heavy bag, I truly don't know that I was using the long fist method, TKD method, or MT method.

What's the difference between the SC hip throw and the Judo hip throw? As long as you can make it work, you truly don't care the original.


I think what you may be missing is that now your passed method and are using what some might call the John Wang method.

Which comes from your many years of Long training and experience.

The fact that you can see the differences and explain the differences underlies that you no longer care about the differences. Just results..
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Re: What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:46 pm

windwalker wrote:
dspyrido wrote: I also know that in trying to teach guys who dont get xy what benefits it can attain is like talking to a brick wall.


Why would they want to learn something without either feeling or seeing results. In this whole post there are no clips of results being shown used. There are clips of training and lots of commentary about what's going on but no usage in the ring.

Conversely examples showing other arts are almost all examples of usage in the ring.

It's the exact opposite.


The scenario I am talking about comes from guys who feel something in sparring (that I believe comes from xy) & they ask me ... "how did you do that?". In responding most just don't get it. Who can blame them when they are still trying to get a good grasp of evasion, counterattacking, kicking to bridge, clinching, in fighting, take down, control, ground and pound & submission. Only a small percentage of people practising martial arts have spent decades exploring and testing widely in order to be able to feel comfortable enough to get things that are at best refinements for them.
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