Aiki and Internal Training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:36 pm

Trick wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:The internal aspects of aiki are a recent thing borrowed from CMA
It has only become common practice since there has been a buck in the seminar circuit

I think you’re right


I have no doubt that aiki was derived from Chinese internal arts. Some internal aspects in Japan came directly from southern Chinese internal styles (White Crane), Okinawan karate styles such as Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu (which were later brought to Japan) being prime examples. The aiki of Daito Ryu is not proven to have existed prior to Sokaku Takeda (1859-1943), and though some martial arts researchers conjecture otherwise, there are some who believe that Takeda learned neigong from a Shinto scholar with Chinese ancestry, who was known to have taught Takeda special esoteric subjects.

Since then, there have been a number of infusions of Chinese internals into Japanese martial culture, notably Wang Shu Jin, and, more recently Liu Chengde, who lived in Japan for 10 years and taught aiki/internals to two Daito Ryu students.
Last edited by Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:44 am

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:there’re supposed to be solo practice methods in Japanese Koryu martial arts schools and those methods are said to develop “Aiki”, a skill developed within and this is called Aiki? Why is this so, why is that body skill called Aiki ? ......As I understand Aiki is how one acts/react/ in blending with a force coming on from the outside, such as an attacker’s physical force and spirit.


"Aiki" as I know it, is one of several ways in which "internal power or strength" is manifested. It's the manipulation of "In and Yo" (Yin and Yang) body mechanics in various ways, within your own body, to create and direct force in spirals and helices,pulsations of compression and expansion of soft tissues and joints. and the drawing in and propelling back of the force generated by the manipulation of said tissues. When an opponent makes contact with you - or you with him - his body is forced to merge and move with those manipulations you are creating within your own body. Small internal movements you make are mirrored in amplified movement by the opponent's body, and are directed to control his center of mass in a big way. So, a very (seemingly) small movement by you, is expressed by a bigger reaction in your opponent's body. Done rapidly, this can be a very shocky concussive delivery of force that goes deep to the opponent's core.

This merging of force does not compromise your own center of mass, which is hidden from the opponent -- he can't feel where it is. You absorb his force to the ground, and deliver it back to him almost instantaneously, amplified by a contribution of additional force from your own internal manipulations.

The system of aikijujutsu I study has many tanren (forging drills) to develop proper internal structure and the manipulations of internal tissues to develop aiki. It is very similar - and covers the same principles - as the Chinese internal martial art I also study, which also is heavily comprised of forging exercises and practices, some virtually identical to the aikijujutsu ones I have been shown. Same principles, different ways to express them according to the particular "flavor" of the two arts.

Hmmm, i think here’s to much emphasis on inner(brute)force. If we talking Inter acting with a live opponent/training partner i would say you got to listen what that guy is offering you and adapt/merge with that in a way that as little brute force as possible lay hand on you....i would say this is actually Aiki, or at least a higher level of it. Yours approach seem to solely lean on your own inner(brute)force, doing so in every encounter/interaction with training partners or opponents will eventually hurt your own body.....Tanren, traditionally in Japanese Koryu MA’s I would guess suburi exercises where done extensively ? Anyway suburi exercises are an exelent way to develop both inner and outer strength, to work from ones center. Back in the days of the sword the practice was an necessity, when the sword era went away the practice gradually diminished. In Kendo it’s still done but with the lighter Shinai, in Aikido it might be practiced sometimes with a bokken, in the early days of Shotokan Karate it was included and done with a heavy club but nowadays I don’t think so(I’ve never seen it in any Shotokan karate dojo) So those who practice suburi rigorously will gain a strength that one not usually encounter....Another exercise that done in Aikido(but not extensively)is the Shikko(knee walking)that probably was a common way to move around in a room in olden day japan but nowadays not so ? I can see this way of “walking” could be a way of strengthening hips and lower abdominal area(Hara/tanden) and keeping the body centered. And then of course the Sumo Shiko that also gives the hips lower abdomen/back and waist a good workout....All traditional non secret exercises, the only thing is one has to do them continuously and strict, and that’s the thing, people nowadays just don’t can not or don’t want to do that that’s why that “special” strengt is in most cases not there anymore. But the higher level of Aiki, of not clashing can still be harnessed
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:19 pm

Hi Trick,
To the contrary, there is no brute force at all. It's the softest kind of movement imaginable! What there is, however, is a lot of potential energy created by complimentary-opposite (opposing) forces created in very specific locations, with specific muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia. We exploit that dynamic tension to create both movement and power. These specialized tissue groups do the work so that the vast majority of the body's muscles are completely relaxed. The internal movements created are flowing and a constant interplay of In and Yo (Yin and Yang). If you do them correctly, you can maintain strong internal structure and create a continuous flow of In-Yo energy without any stopping and starting. For the person generating internal power and aiki, the entire process is flowing and relaxed; to the opponent on the receiving end, however, the effects of aiki can be, variously, shocky, concussive, compressing, smothering, or sticky.

Internal strength or power has several manifestations, one being to penetrate the opponent's defense structure, another being to deflect the opponent's attack (using 6-directional force), and the third being the control of his center of mass in such a way that he is compelled to merge with your internal movements, against his will. This third manifestation is what we'd call aiki. Whatever we are doing in our own body, the opponent is forced to do in mirror image, and with a greater degree of force. I call it the "Fred Astaire-Ginger Rogers Effect." Your opponent is doing everything that you are doing, but mirror image, reverse, or backward... though not necessarily in high heels. :)

Tanren in the internal Japanese arts are meant to develop various body qualities that, combined, comprise internal structure and the processes for the movement and power generation I have described. The problem is, somehow over the years, many of the exercises have become empty because they were passed along by individuals who didn't have a full understanding of the internal mechanics that were supposed to be there. As a result, exercises such as suburi -- the sword cutting drills -- are devoid of any internal processes, and are just external exercises in sword swatting and breathing. This is pretty much the case in aikido. What contemporary aikidoka are doing, in suburi, is not what their art's founder, Morihei Ueshiba was doing, even though to anyone watching those students or Ueshiba, it would all look like the same thing. Similarly, the ubiquitous aikido practice of funakogi undo (rowing exercise) is an empty shell of external rowing, while originally it was intended as an important tanren for developing the powerful interplay of tanden (dantian) and meimon (mingmen) for drawing and propulsion.

Shikko, likewise, was meant to be a tanren for developing power in the sokei orime (kua), and was practiced in idori (kneeling) and tachiai (standing position) with a sword - katana or kodachi - as it is one means of creating a powerful strike or cut. In aikido now, though, it is done as an external swinging of the outer hips, not from deep within the inguinal crease.

Shiko ("shko") was an old sumo tanren that developed cross-body connectivity that allowed sumoka to give powerful slaps that were driven from the opposite side of the body. An opponent might not be able to tell which side of his opponent's body was "full" and which was "empty" because naname daoshi, the diagonality of the structure, created the illusion of emptiness on one side - and yet that side's hand that struck was full. Nowadays, conventional shiko is more of a balance exercise and a way to drop the center of mass.

Mainline aikido - the curriculum mass marketed by Morihei Ueshiba's son and inheritor, Kisshomaru - is devoid of the aiki that Morihei based his aikido on. I suspect Kisshomaru saw it as a liability -- too complex to teach internal skills without jikiden (direct transmission from teacher to student), and so not practical to include it. The young missionaries the Aikikai sent out into the world to spread aikido had not themselves learned aiki; most, if not all, of them didn't understand what Morihei was doing, and didn't have the patience or interest to aggressively seek it out from him. They just wanted to throw each other around. ;) So, all of the old exercises that Morihei himself practiced infused with internal movement, became empty of those mechanics. They are perfectly good aerobic and muscle-strengthening drills, but of the external variety.

Trick wrote:Hmmm, i think here’s to much emphasis on inner(brute)force. If we talking Inter acting with a live opponent/training partner i would say you got to listen what that guy is offering you and adapt/merge with that in a way that as little brute force as possible lay hand on you....i would say this is actually Aiki, or at least a higher level of it. Yours approach seem to solely lean on your own inner(brute)force, doing so in every encounter/interaction with training partners or opponents will eventually hurt your own body.....Tanren, traditionally in Japanese Koryu MA’s I would guess suburi exercises where done extensively ? Anyway suburi exercises are an exelent way to develop both inner and outer strength, to work from ones center. Back in the days of the sword the practice was an necessity, when the sword era went away the practice gradually diminished. In Kendo it’s still done but with the lighter Shinai, in Aikido it might be practiced sometimes with a bokken, in the early days of Shotokan Karate it was included and done with a heavy club but nowadays I don’t think so(I’ve never seen it in any Shotokan karate dojo) So those who practice suburi rigorously will gain a strength that one not usually encounter....Another exercise that done in Aikido(but not extensively)is the Shikko(knee walking)that probably was a common way to move around in a room in olden day japan but nowadays not so ? I can see this way of “walking” could be a way of strengthening hips and lower abdominal area(Hara/tanden) and keeping the body centered. And then of course the Sumo Shiko that also gives the hips lower abdomen/back and waist a good workout....All traditional non secret exercises, the only thing is one has to do them continuously and strict, and that’s the thing, people nowadays just don’t can not or don’t want to do that that’s why that “special” strengt is in most cases not there anymore. But the higher level of Aiki, of not clashing can still be harnessed
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:16 am

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:The internal aspects of aiki are a recent thing borrowed from CMA
It has only become common practice since there has been a buck in the seminar circuit

I think you’re right


I have no doubt that aiki was derived from Chinese internal arts. Some internal aspects in Japan came directly from southern Chinese internal styles (White Crane), Okinawan karate styles such as Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu (which were later brought to Japan) being prime examples. The aiki of Daito Ryu is not proven to have existed prior to Sokaku Takeda (1859-1943), and though some martial arts researchers conjecture otherwise, there are some who believe that Takeda learned neigong from a Shinto scholar with Chinese ancestry, who was known to have taught Takeda special esoteric subjects.

Since then, there have been a number of infusions of Chinese internals into Japanese martial culture, notably Wang Shu Jin, and, more recently Liu Chengde, who lived in Japan for 10 years and taught aiki/internals to two Daito Ryu students.

I’m reading an article by Ellis Amdur where he describe Wang Shujin basically just teaching the Taiji form in Japan and students could only at best follow. I wouldn’t speculate that any recent Chinese GongFu teachers teaching in Japan contributed with anything significantly to the Japanese martial arts traditions. Goju-ryu and similar I don’t think has added any internal practice methods to other traditional Japanese Budo. Many of the early Japanese(main islands) Karatekas probably already had an Kendo/Judo foundation when they took up Karate, so it might be mainland Karate has more influences from other Budo arts than the other way around.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:55 am

Trick wrote:I’m reading an article by Ellis Amdur where he describe Wang Shujin basically just teaching the Taiji form in Japan and students could only at best follow. I wouldn’t speculate that any recent Chinese GongFu teachers teaching in Japan contributed with anything significantly to the Japanese martial arts traditions. Goju-ryu and similar I don’t think has added any internal practice methods to other traditional Japanese Budo. Many of the early Japanese(main islands) Karatekas probably already had an Kendo/Judo foundation when they took up Karate, so it might be mainland Karate has more influences from other Budo arts than the other way around.


With all due respect to Ellis, his contact with WSJ was extremely brief and limited by his own admission. There are other individuals who had connections and may have different insights and perspectives to offer. But, yes, in the dearth of public affirmations, it's all speculation. But it is documented fact that Liu Chengde has worked with Japanese martial artists, and at least in modern times, there is a lot of cross-pollination where martial artists with only external skills are training with internals experts, and then reverse-engineering the internals into their work, with varying success and fullness.

Some also dismiss the possibility that Sokaku Takeda learned aiki via neigong and, possibly, qigong, taught to him by Tanomo Saigo, the Shinto scholar who was of Chinese descent. This dismissal is based on the point that no mention of budo (martial studies) was made in Saigo's diaries. But this lacks the nuance of what is underlying: that what Saigo taught was considered "esoteric Buddhist practices," referred to as "oshikiuchi" -- "over the threshold".... meaning "insider" information, taught to people admitted into the inner circles of the castle, or the cultural milieu. While the literal interpretation is that this is special etiquette taught to court members, the deeper context is that these were secret teachings. These would be the body exercises which were largely taught, originally, for health and wellness, much like yoga was. For Saigo, a scholar and gentleman of high bearing, that was his approach. But for Sokaku Takeda, these body exercises and skills would provide an extra edge in martial application.

Japanese internal arts did not spontaneously create the internal principles and practices. The evidence, and just common sense from those who train in both CIMA and JIMA point to definite Chinese origins. I train in a contemporary Japanese aikijujutsu system and Chinese internal system, both of which were created by men who made deep studies of multiple martial arts and distilled their essence into one. There are tanren in both arts that are nearly identical -- and the only differences are simply artistic-stylistic, superficial ones. It is a given that the Chinese exercises preceded the Japanese ones, and that somehow the Japanese practitioner had a cultural insteraction with Chinese ones. Both arts have and utilize the same principles and concepts, but express them martially with different artistic "flavors."
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:41 pm

Interloper wrote:
Trick wrote:I’m reading an article by Ellis Amdur where he describe Wang Shujin basically just teaching the Taiji form in Japan and students could only at best follow. I wouldn’t speculate that any recent Chinese GongFu teachers teaching in Japan contributed with anything significantly to the Japanese martial arts traditions. Goju-ryu and similar I don’t think has added any internal practice methods to other traditional Japanese Budo. Many of the early Japanese(main islands) Karatekas probably already had an Kendo/Judo foundation when they took up Karate, so it might be mainland Karate has more influences from other Budo arts than the other way around.


With all due respect to Ellis, his contact with WSJ was extremely brief and limited by his own admission. There are other individuals who had connections and may have different insights and perspectives to offer. But, yes, in the dearth of public affirmations, it's all speculation. But it is documented fact that Liu Chengde has worked with Japanese martial artists, and at least in modern times, there is a lot of cross-pollination where martial artists with only external skills are training with internals experts, and then reverse-engineering the internals into their work, with varying success and fullness.

Some also dismiss the possibility that Sokaku Takeda learned aiki via neigong and, possibly, qigong, taught to him by Tanomo Saigo, the Shinto scholar who was of Chinese descent. This dismissal is based on the point that no mention of budo (martial studies) was made in Saigo's diaries. But this lacks the nuance of what is underlying: that what Saigo taught was considered "esoteric Buddhist practices," referred to as "oshikiuchi" -- "over the threshold".... meaning "insider" information, taught to people admitted into the inner circles of the castle, or the cultural milieu. While the literal interpretation is that this is special etiquette taught to court members, the deeper context is that these were secret teachings. These would be the body exercises which were largely taught, originally, for health and wellness, much like yoga was. For Saigo, a scholar and gentleman of high bearing, that was his approach. But for Sokaku Takeda, these body exercises and skills would provide an extra edge in martial application.

Japanese internal arts did not spontaneously create the internal principles and practices. The evidence, and just common sense from those who train in both CIMA and JIMA point to definite Chinese origins. I train in a contemporary Japanese aikijujutsu system and Chinese internal system, both of which were created by men who made deep studies of multiple martial arts and distilled their essence into one. There are tanren in both arts that are nearly identical -- and the only differences are simply artistic-stylistic, superficial ones. It is a given that the Chinese exercises preceded the Japanese ones, and that somehow the Japanese practitioner had a cultural insteraction with Chinese ones. Both arts have and utilize the same principles and concepts, but express them martially with different artistic "flavors."

Being of Chinese descent does not mean one automatically has something extraordinary, my Karate teacher in Okinawa was of Chinese descent, he was a highly skilled Goju-ryu practitioner who learned from other Okinawans. Of course the boxing that came to be called Goju Ryu has its origin in China. As a lot of the old Japanese culture also got influenced from China throughout history. Even the Classical Japanese sword probably was of design found in old China. But it all eventually came to have its own Japanese flavor. There might be pure mysterious exercises from China within the Japanese Koryu martial arts only to be passed on behind locked doors, but I don’t really believe that, I believe the Japanese martial arts behind the door teachings would work just as fine as today’s Chinese inner door teachings.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:53 am

Trick wrote:Being of Chinese descent does not mean one automatically has something extraordinary, my Karate teacher in Okinawa was of Chinese descent, he was a highly skilled Goju-ryu practitioner who learned from other Okinawans. Of course the boxing that came to be called Goju Ryu has its origin in China. As a lot of the old Japanese culture also got influenced from China throughout history. Even the Classical Japanese sword probably was of design found in old China. But it all eventually came to have its own Japanese flavor. There might be pure mysterious exercises from China within the Japanese Koryu martial arts only to be passed on behind locked doors, but I don’t really believe that, I believe the Japanese martial arts behind the door teachings would work just as fine as today’s Chinese inner door teachings.


I think you would need to do a little bit of study on Tanomo Saigo (AKA Hoshina Chikanori) and Sokaku Takeda to have better context and understanding of the hypothesis.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:37 pm

You write Saigo was a Shinto scholar. So it’s probably from that tradition exercises/rituals came into Takedas approach
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby wiesiek on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:22 am

I would like to add:
circling and exchanging, it is way how it /evolution/ usually go, not only into MA circle. :)
who invented what, - is hidden in the mist of myths,
and
in fact, it is not important.
Who started to teach it openly /hmm, did it ever happen? :D /counts.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:53 am

Trick wrote:You write Saigo was a Shinto scholar. So it’s probably from that tradition exercises/rituals came into Takedas approach


Even if that were so, the practice was very unlikely to have been invented from whole cloth in Japan. Chinese influence was heavy and broad, and much of Japanese culture was an absorption and adaptation of it, including in art, music, garden design and architecture. In Japan at that time and earlier, scholars studied the Chinese Classics, and were well versed in many aspects of Japanese culture. The Japanese are famous for their ability to adapt inventions and concepts from other cultures and make them uniquely their own. It is very probable that aiki was another such product of Chinese introduction, adapted to suit Japanese needs.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:04 am

Some say some things came from India, some mention Persia, of course via China. Take Okinawa who had strong trade and cultural relations not only with China, but also as much with Siam, and other countries in South east Asia
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:11 am

Trick wrote:Some say some things came from India, some mention Persia, of course via China. Take Okinawa who had strong trade and cultural relations not only with China, but also as much with Siam, and other countries in South east Asia

To add. If we talking Hokkaidō there is the Ainu people, seemingly with roots from Siberia, what traditions did they bring along.
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