Aiki and Internal Training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:42 am

there’re supposed to be solo practice methods in Japanese Koryu martial arts schools and those methods are said to develop “Aiki”, a skill developed within and this is called Aiki? Why is this so, why is that body skill called Aiki ? ......As I understand Aiki is how one acts/react/ in blending with a force coming on from the outside, such as an attacker’s physical force and spirit.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby everything on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:59 am

it's nice to see more interest in "internal". blending, evading, riding, dissolving, leading into emptiness are not "internal". they aren't even MA. they happen in ordinary sports at all levels all the time. every weekend. every day. by amateurs and hobbyists. so if that's what people find in "aiki" or taiji, it seems understandable they start looking for something else.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:48 am

Taiji and other CMA’s have their specific “internal” conditioning methods and they call them by names such as for example ‘six harmonies” and line out what’s to harmony. While ‘Aiki’ just suggest blending/joining energies/spirits, this could of course refer to the six harmonies but it doesn’t say so. So the general definition of Aiki in the martial arts is to join instead of clash with an attacker...Some gain that skill by for example practicing Aikido, athletes in other fields might also become skilled in not clashing forces.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:31 pm

The internal aspects of aiki are a recent thing borrowed from CMA
It has only become common practice since there has been a buck in the seminar circuit
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:25 pm

Trick wrote:there’re supposed to be solo practice methods in Japanese Koryu martial arts schools and those methods are said to develop “Aiki”, a skill developed within and this is called Aiki? Why is this so, why is that body skill called Aiki ? ......As I understand Aiki is how one acts/react/ in blending with a force coming on from the outside, such as an attacker’s physical force and spirit.


"Aiki" as I know it, is one of several ways in which "internal power or strength" is manifested. It's the manipulation of "In and Yo" (Yin and Yang) body mechanics in various ways, within your own body, to create and direct force in spirals and helices,pulsations of compression and expansion of soft tissues and joints. and the drawing in and propelling back of the force generated by the manipulation of said tissues. When an opponent makes contact with you - or you with him - his body is forced to merge and move with those manipulations you are creating within your own body. Small internal movements you make are mirrored in amplified movement by the opponent's body, and are directed to control his center of mass in a big way. So, a very (seemingly) small movement by you, is expressed by a bigger reaction in your opponent's body. Done rapidly, this can be a very shocky concussive delivery of force that goes deep to the opponent's core.

This merging of force does not compromise your own center of mass, which is hidden from the opponent -- he can't feel where it is. You absorb his force to the ground, and deliver it back to him almost instantaneously, amplified by a contribution of additional force from your own internal manipulations.

The system of aikijujutsu I study has many tanren (forging drills) to develop proper internal structure and the manipulations of internal tissues to develop aiki. It is very similar - and covers the same principles - as the Chinese internal martial art I also study, which also is heavily comprised of forging exercises and practices, some virtually identical to the aikijujutsu ones I have been shown. Same principles, different ways to express them according to the particular "flavor" of the two arts.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:49 pm

No clips of this in action.
Lots of words describing what's going on.
If I was to talk about drop step
for example there are clips
of it in action being used.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:51 pm

"This merging of force does not compromise your own center of mass, which is hidden from the opponent -- he can't feel where it is.

You absorb his force to the ground, and deliver it back to him almost instantaneously, amplified by a contribution of additional force from your own internal manipulations"

Another way of looking at this could be called Central equilibrium. When something is in a state of equilibrium all forces acting on it are 0.

If one talks about absorbing Force to the ground they are not in a state of equilibrium. Anything that happens has to happen at the point of contact.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:52 pm

This merging of force does not compromise your own center of mass, which is hidden from the opponent -- he can't feel where it is. You absorb his force to the ground, and deliver it back to him almost instantaneously, amplified by a contribution of additional force from your own internal manipulations.



Is this reflective of someone adjusting trying to maintain their center


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq008eK ... e=youtu.be

I note that some have not bothered to explain the theory of what is or could be happening on this thread
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 4d37dc3f4f

and yet go into great detail about what is supposed to be happening with no video clips supporting it on
other threads.

Explaining the theory might make whats shown in clips a little more understandable to those watching who may
not have the back ground.....
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:09 pm

windwalker wrote:
This merging of force does not compromise your own center of mass, which is hidden from the opponent -- he can't feel where it is. You absorb his force to the ground, and deliver it back to him almost instantaneously, amplified by a contribution of additional force from your own internal manipulations.



Is this reflective of someone adjusting trying to maintain their center


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq008eK ... e=youtu.be



Yes, that's what they are doing.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:13 pm

windwalker wrote:No clips of this in action.
Lots of words describing what's going on.
If I was to talk about drop step
for example there are clips
of it in action being used.


Video doesn't help. You can only see overt movement. Aiki and "internal" about inner movement and feel. That's why everyone who sees these videos of Sam Chin, Roy Goldberg and other internal martial artists believe that the training partners are tanking or "hypnotized," or whatever, and can't possibly be getting compelled to make those kinds of reactions against their will.

You are always welcome to train with me, and I would be happy to explain as best I can via hands-on.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:17 pm

Interloper wrote:
windwalker wrote:
This merging of force does not compromise your own center of mass, which is hidden from the opponent -- he can't feel where it is. You absorb his force to the ground, and deliver it back to him almost instantaneously, amplified by a contribution of additional force from your own internal manipulations.



Is this reflective of someone adjusting trying to maintain their center


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq008eK ... e=youtu.be



Yes, that's what they are doing.


kudos to you , a simple and honest answer ;)

Had you or anyone else familiar with the training given the theory as you have done now.

It would have provided a context by which many could view it through while still not agreeing with it
or understanding it.

Looking at the clip, what you mentioned was pretty much my own feelings on what was going and why it may or may not
affect others in the same way..

If your so inclined it might help to explain the different reactions in people and why.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:24 pm

Interloper wrote:
Video doesn't help. You can only see overt movement. Aiki and "internal" about inner movement and feel. That's why everyone who sees these videos of Sam Chin, Roy Goldberg and other internal martial artists believe that the training partners are tanking or "hypnotized," or whatever, and can't possibly be getting compelled to make those kinds of reactions against their will.

You are always welcome to train with me, and I would be happy to explain as best I can via hands-on.



No need I can do, or have felt most if not all that was shown....

After 10+ yrs of working with and researching it with a group in beijing,
I've changed my way of looking at it and have developed my own methods
for adopting it into my own work in a more direct way....


“Tsang-Lu” 蒼 鷺

"Describes a method developed from the basic practices of hop gar, and taiji, forming a unique approach embodying aspects of both.

A practice based on developing an understanding of
“moving with awareness”
what this means, the practice, functional usage.

16 oz gloves are used test out the functional usage


My writing sucks....you and some others have good skill in this. If you provide a context by which things can be viewed by
it would help and maybe provide some interesting dialogue.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:31 pm

windwalker,
See my response to Graham's question in his "How Would You React" thread in the video section. Both Sam Chin and Roy Goldberg, being senior internal practioners, would neutralize each other's aiki if they exercised their internal structural skills. Witnesses would just see two men standing there holding hands. :D So, they took turns "releasing" their structure, and instead let their body "revert" to the conventional structure of a typical person so they could demonstrate their aiki principles on each other. So in the fullest sense they aren't really adjusting much to maintain center when it's their turn to be "uke." But in theory, in a real test situation, yes, that's what they would be doing.

windwalker wrote:
kudos to you , a simple and honest answer ;)

Had you or anyone else familiar with the training given the theory as you have done now.

It would have provided a context by which many could view it through while still not agreeing with it
or understanding it.

Looking at the clip, what you mentioned was pretty much my own feelings on what was going and why it may or may not
affect others in the same way..

If your so inclined it might help to explain the different reactions in people and why.
Last edited by Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:00 pm

my first contact with Aikido was in 1980 in Hawaii. A friend of mine was teaching with the Koichi Tohei (藤平光一 Tōhei Kōichi group.
In a lot of the clips I watch with some of the ones posted here is pretty much what they were doing back then.

He would be the one to suggest I study with this taiji group.


Sam, as he liked to be called was in many ways ahead of his time.

Having come from a hard style back ground his hands were gnarled not with age but with the training he did as a much younger man toughing them on coconut trees growing on the island. I can still hear him in his Hawaiian accented pidgin English, “and now we use the good old American right hook ” when going over how his taiji worked.

Image
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Aiki and Internal Training

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:26 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The internal aspects of aiki are a recent thing borrowed from CMA
It has only become common practice since there has been a buck in the seminar circuit

I think you’re right
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