Shun Bu and Ao Bu

[Yeung]

I am writing a post on the half step crashing fist of Guo Yun Shen, and can members of this forum make some suggestion on the translations for Shun Bu 顺步 and Ao Bu 拗步. There is two arrow punches in the crashing fist, one is done with Shun Bu, the other one is done with Ao Bu but in half a step.

Shun Bu can be described as at the end of the movement the forward leg and the forward arm are on the same side, left leg and left hand, or right leg and right hand. Shun literally means in the same direction, or downstream,

Ao Bu can be described as at the end of the movement the forward leg and the forward arm are on different sides, left leg and right hand, or right leg with left hand. Examples of this are: in Taijiquan which is commonly translated as twisted step, or reversed punch in Karate, or a cross in Boxing.

Many thanks and look forward to your suggestions.

[origami_itto]

Funny enough I was just reading an article about this by my former teacher.

He suggests twist step and favorable step.

http://www.rayhayward.com/2018/09/twist ... p.html?m=1

[charles]

Probably, I wouldn't translate them. I'd explain their meaning, exactly as you have above, and then continue to use shun and ao bu.

Here's my reasoning. Shun bu and ao bu are a "shorthand" for the action being described - stepping and punching with the same hand as foot and stepping and punching with the opposite hand as foot. It becomes very cumbersome to repeatedly say "Step with your same foot as the punching hand", which is the action you are describing.

In English, any shorthand that eliminates having to repeat that over and over again would make it easier to write and read. The shorthand could simply be called "A" and "B", with A and B defined once. If one is going to use some shortcut, it might as well be "shun bu" and "ao bu", provided their explicit meanings have been given prior to their use as a shorthand. "Twist step", for example, doesn't accurately describe the action being done and provides no real further insight over any other shorthand. Ditto for "Favorable step". "Cross step" is a little more explicit in describing the action, but, again, requires a definition of the term, just like any other shorthand being used. So, if you have to give a definition of whatever shortcut term you use, you might as well stick with the original, shun bu and ao bu.

[Trick]

Lead punch and reverse punch....

[Yeung]

Lead punch and reverse punch....

Thanks, and the ideas of Shun 順 and Ni 逆 are quite well documented in Karate:

An oi-zuki [oiˌzɯki] (Japanese 追 い 突 き) (in Wadō-Ryū: Jun-Zuki, Japanese 順 突 き) is a equal-sided punch. And the gyaku-zuki(Japanese: 逆突き, pronounced [ɡjakɯzɯki]) is an attack technique, which is a counterpart or reverse of oi-zuki.

[wayne hansen]

One of the biggest shortcomings I see in hsing I is not understanding how the follow step aids the punch
Too many practicioners don't understand the timing and direction of the rear leg

[MaartenSFS]

Why bother translating when the translation is longer than the original and if visiting China or meeting Chinese and burning that communication bridge??

[Yeung]

One of the biggest shortcomings I see in hsing I is not understanding how the follow step aids the punch
Too many practicioners don't understand the timing and direction of the rear leg

Interesting observation while Xingyi traditionally is known to be taking advantage of stepping to improve its punching power. In boxing the cross is more powerful than the jab, in Karate the reverse punch is more powerful than the lead punch, and the same is with Xingyi. From my observation, most practitioners stamp the rear leg forward and broken the hand, torso, and leg unity in a reverse punch that is all.

[johnwang]

In boxing the cross is more powerful than the jab,

When you throw a cross, after your body rotation, if you step in back leg, your cross will become a leading hand punch with body weight behind it.

[MaartenSFS]

One of the biggest shortcomings I see in hsing I is not understanding how the follow step aids the punch
Too many practicioners don't understand the timing and direction of the rear leg

Interesting observation while Xingyi traditionally is known to be taking advantage of stepping to improve its punching power. In boxing the cross is more powerful than the jab, in Karate the reverse punch is more powerful than the lead punch, and the same is with Xingyi. From my observation, most practitioners stamp the rear leg forward and broken the hand, torso, and leg unity in a reverse punch that is all.

Not necessarily.. A proper Piquan can be just as devastating and is performed in Shunbu.

[klonk]

???

[marvin8]

I am writing a post on the half step crashing fist of Guo Yun Shen, and can members of this forum make some suggestion on the translations for Shun Bu 顺步 and Ao Bu 拗步. There is two arrow punches in the crashing fist, one is done with Shun Bu, the other one is done with Ao Bu but in half a step.

Shun Bu can be described as at the end of the movement the forward leg and the forward arm are on the same side, left leg and left hand, or right leg and right hand. Shun literally means in the same direction, or downstream,

Ao Bu can be described as at the end of the movement the forward leg and the forward arm are on different sides, left leg and right hand, or right leg with left hand. Examples of this are: in Taijiquan which is commonly translated as twisted step, or reversed punch in Karate, or a cross in Boxing.

Many thanks and look forward to your suggestions.

The difference between the half step crashing fist of Guo Yun Shen and Taijiquan's twist step is the timing of the front foot landing and release.

In Xing yi, the front foot and punch lands at the same time. After the foot lands, nothing happens.

In Taiji's twist step, the front foot lands first. After the foot lands, the back kua opens, the back foot (which is at 45° or 90°) rotates 45°or 90° towards the opponent while weight is being transferred over to the front kua, the front kua closes while strike is completed. (The lead leg is used as pivot point. One can change the strike to a vertical fist to body.).

This extra stage makes Taiji's twist step more powerful according to research studies. This is the final phase in the kinetic chain. The kinetic chain is also used in boxing, MLB, NFl, etc:

My understanding of the secret to IMA's power generation is that it is "SEQUENTIAL" -- never arriving at the same time.
If everything arrives at the same time, you are no longer a whip. . . .

There are actually several dissertations on the biomechanics of Taiji and whole-body power in CIMA published by sports scientists in Taiwan that prove fajin is indeed sequential beginning from the feet all the way up to the hands, or moving in a "kinetic chain," as they call it. So there's really no point in debating who's right here.

A video on Shun Jin.

Published on: Saturday, February 13, 2016
http://WWW.XINGYIACADEMY.COM

Paul and Jon go deep into the core mechanics of Xing Yi, specifically using Shun Jin, a method of recycling energy. Some Xing Yi animal methods are used for demonstration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfCvmHNDtis

[MaartenSFS]

I didn't see a single proper Bengquan in that video. WTF..

[marvin8]

@ 2:28 of the Shun Jin video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfCvmHNDtis:

"and there I stop. . . . Rather than do that, I do 1, 2. So, I am using the same energy to skip forward."

The following study showed that step 2 not only uses the same energy to skip forward. But in fact, it is the most important step, "lead toe in," to "transform vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force."

Excerpts from "Kinematic and kinetic analysis of throwing a straight punch: the role of trunk
rotation in delivering a powerful straight punch," https://efsupit.ro/images/stories/30dec ... %20287.pdf:

The result showed straight punches had 3 stages, i.e., (1) starting position, (2) lead toe off, and (3) lead toe in. The results suggested that the final stage, lead toe in, was the most important in delivering powerful straight punches, and boxers used trunk rotation to transform vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force. . . .

Movement Pattern of Straight Punches
GRFs of both legs from each participant were shown in the middle and the bottom panels of Figure 1. The patterns of GRFs of both legs were similar among every participant. Figure 1 revealed that punching phases or movement pattern of straight punches could be divided into 3 stages, i.e., starting position, lead toe off (LTO), and lead toe in (LTI). . . .

(3) Lead Toe In (Figure 1c-1d): the final stage started when boxers began to bear weight on the lead leg and ended when the fist hit the target (Figure 1d). At this stage, boxers used the lead leg as a pivot point and executed straight punches such that only lead leg supported the body weight and the rear leg bore no GRF. At this stage, GRF of the rear leg decreased, while GRF of the lead leg increased, which was exactly opposite from the starting position or the first stage. From Figure 1d, the directions of GRF of the lead leg and punch force were not in the same direction. As a result, the participants utilised the lead leg as a break to stabilise their movement. The time analysis of the final stage differed greatly among the participants ranging from 29.5% to 45% of total punching time. LTI was extremely important in delivering powerful straight punches. As seen in Figure 2, the kinetic chain of straight punches occurred after 70% of total punching time meaning that the whole kinetic chain was created and ended at this final stage. . . .

As seen in Figure 2, the kinetic chain of straight punches occurred after 70% of total punching time meaning that the whole kinetic chain was created and ended at this final stage. . . .

The trunk rotation played crucial role in LTI or the final stage of punching. At LTI, the displacement angle of trunk rotation was greatest (at 80% of punching time). Angular velocity of trunk rotation increased as GRF of the lead leg increased while GRF of the rear leg decreased. The lead leg acted as a pivot point, while the rear leg pushed the trunk and the whole body of boxers forward to create punching momentum and, thus, punch force. Therefore, trunk rotation mechanically transferred vertical ground reaction forces to horizontal punching force. The peak angular velocity of trunk rotation was achieved at impact. . . .

The final stage, which was lead toe in, was crucial in delivering powerful force.

Funny enough I was just reading an article about this by my former teacher.

He suggests twist step and favorable step.

http://www.rayhayward.com/2018/09/twist ... p.html?m=1

Yes. This illustrates the kinetic chain.

http://www.rayhayward.com/2018/09/twist ... p.html?m=1:

As I became comfortable and successful with these two stances, I started to notice them consistently in my daily life as a truck driver and laborer, and in various sports. Twist-Step always seemed to be used in power and favorable always seemed to be used in speed.

Here are examples of twist-step in sports.

[MaartenSFS]

Uh... He talks about the Bengquan, but doesn't do one. I really don't understand how this contributes to your argument at all. I don't even like the little skip. It looks unbalanced. There should be no vertical movement.