Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Steve James on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:37 pm

But what, short of an MMA victory, which by nature ... at which point what does it even have to do with demonstrating taijiquan efficacy,would be universally accepted as respectable?


Now, that seems to be a question for Wei's critics. If the argument is that no contest between an "mma" person and a "tcc" practitioner would illustrate the efficacy of tcc, then why criticize Wei for something he could not have done? Criticism of Wei is valid, imo, only if the argument is that he could have done better. As you've said, the shame is that even he now seems to question tcc's efficacy.

True, there is (and probably will never be) any consensus about a tcc style or a tcc practitioner, except perhaps for one who has been deceased for centuries. There's no consensus about Yang Lu Chan or Bruce Lee. No reason to expect any.

True. Videos prove nothing. I know that from experience. Talking proves even less. That is what Wei has demonstrated. Well, I've also learned that out of any of those laughable martial arts about, there is someone who can kick my butt.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 17410
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Peacedog on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:19 pm

Windwalker,

That's why I've been tempted to take up BJJ or catch wrestling as of late. I have no illusions about reaching a high level of skill, but it is something that older guys can learn to do effectively without risk of getting too injured in the process.
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:52 pm

Steve James wrote:
But what, short of an MMA victory, which by nature ... at which point what does it even have to do with demonstrating taijiquan efficacy,would be universally accepted as respectable?


Now, that seems to be a question for Wei's critics. If the argument is that no contest between an "mma" person and a "tcc" practitioner would illustrate the efficacy of tcc, then why criticize Wei for something he could not have done? Criticism of Wei is valid, imo, only if the argument is that he could have done better. As you've said, the shame is that even he now seems to question tcc's efficacy.

True, there is (and probably will never be) any consensus about a tcc style or a tcc practitioner, except perhaps for one who has been deceased for centuries. There's no consensus about Yang Lu Chan or Bruce Lee. No reason to expect any.

True. Videos prove nothing. I know that from experience. Talking proves even less. That is what Wei has demonstrated. Well, I've also learned that out of any of those laughable martial arts about, there is someone who can kick my butt.


Even the Gracies had to cross train to stay relevant once people learned their game. No pure single style has a chance in modern professional MMA, that's been definitively demonstrated.

As I said, though, he's just not the one to champion the art, not that the art needs a champion.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:33 pm

Peacedog wrote:Windwalker,

That's why I've been tempted to take up BJJ or catch wrestling as of late. I have no illusions about reaching a high level of skill, but it is something that older guys can learn to do effectively without risk of getting too injured in the process.



considering your background and some of the post I read from you a little surprised to hear you mention this.

All training is really one of understanding what is meant by mind and training the body to respond to it directly.

The shape it takes in one sense doesn't matter.
However the reality that the practice is based on does.

What many seem to be trapped in is the shape form and function.

The basic objective to be shapeless and formless.

What is called taiji is derived from what some might refer to as MMA now. It has been divided and codified into to distinct methods based on historical teachings of noted practitioners or places of origin.

It was tested and developed in the events of their day long ago.

Most the threads on taiji, tend to look at the shape and form ignoring the functionality except within a limited context demonstrating a skil set.

Historically this was not the case.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7167
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Peacedog on Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:56 am

And that's the thing that I find interesting in all of these discussions.

If you look at the greats in Chinese martial arts, most of them were always cross training. From that standpoint there is little difference between what they were doing and the MMA approach in use today.


As for me the interest in BJJ comes from the fact that my grappling was never very good. So learning that aspect finally would be nice.
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1482
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Overlord on Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:21 am

A lot of times, “so called intetnalist” do not train their speed, strength, reflex, and methodology to adapt to the speed and power.
The Xinyi was not prepared for the speed and power, thus caught off very unprepared, freezed and shocked.
Last edited by Overlord on Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
-saber-


肘不離肋,手不離心
User avatar
Overlord
Wuji
 
Posts: 1407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:03 am

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:51 am

Overlord wrote:A lot of times, “so called intetnalist” do not train their speed, ...

I don't believe if you train slow, you can move fast. If you can run long distance in slow speed. It doesn't mean that you can also run short distance with fast speed.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8730
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby wiesiek on Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:57 am

..."The basic objective to be shapeless and formless..."
sure Windy,
but
If you don`t have a base of the moves shapeless shit can be born...
In fact you don`t have any workin` system where you don`t train techniques and applications .
Of course >shapeless< is ideales, ;)
however
It has to be build on foundation,
or
to put it in gardener style:
you don`t grow nice flowers w/o the roots...
Joyful Fruits of the Live
User avatar
wiesiek
Wuji
 
Posts: 3837
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:38 am
Location: krakow

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Overlord on Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:54 am

johnwang wrote:
Overlord wrote:A lot of times, “so called intetnalist” do not train their speed, ...

I don't believe if you train slow, you can move fast. If you can run long distance in slow speed. It doesn't mean that you can also run short distance with fast speed.


John,
From another perspective ~
A lot of times, so called fast is really not true fast because mind is not catching up with body movements~
When the mind does not match body movements, weakness can occur.
-saber-


肘不離肋,手不離心
User avatar
Overlord
Wuji
 
Posts: 1407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:03 am

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:38 am

wiesiek wrote:..."The basic objective to be shapeless and formless..."
sure Windy,
but
If you don`t have a base of the moves shapeless shit can be born...
In fact you don`t have any workin` system where you don`t train techniques and applications .
Of course >shapeless< is ideales, ;)
however
It has to be build on foundation,
or
to put it in gardener style:
you don`t grow nice flowers w/o the roots...



We seem to have different ideas about what "shapeless and formless" means
and how its attained.


Letting go of my mind and ignoring it like the cat, though it may go where it pleases, this will be using the mind in the way of not having it stop.

If we put this in terms of your own martial art, the mind is not detained by the hand that brandishes the sword. Completely oblivious to the hand that wields the sword, one strikes and cuts his opponent down.

He does not put his mind in his adversary. The opponent is Emptiness. I am Emptiness. The hand that holds the sword, the sword itself, is Emptiness. Understand this, but do not let your mind be taken by Emptiness.

http://www.alexandrosmarinos.com/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7167
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby wiesiek on Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:39 am

what it is - no
how it can be attained - probably yes
- is more than one way to skin the cat < you know :)
Joyful Fruits of the Live
User avatar
wiesiek
Wuji
 
Posts: 3837
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:38 am
Location: krakow

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:20 pm

Steve James wrote:to question tcc's efficacy.

I have asked this question for many years. If Taiji is your only system,

- Which "finish moves" will you use in the ring?
- What "entering strategy" do you use?
- How do you develop it?
- What's your successful rate?

For example, what's your defense and counter if your opponent attacks like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkFWFhT ... e=youtu.be
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8730
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:27 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:to question tcc's efficacy.

I have asked this question for many years. If Taiji is your only system,

- Which "finish moves" will you use in the ring?
- What "entering strategy" do you use?
- How do you develop it?
- What's your successful rate?

For example, what's your defense and counter if your opponent attacks like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkFWFhT ... e=youtu.be


Thanks for asking. What follows is my personal experience with the Yang tcc that I studied, and applies to nothing and no one else.

I trained specifically for what you see in the video from 1977 to 1985.
Which finish moves? The ones that you see in your video.
Entering strategy? Didn't have to worry; they were coming at me.

I'm sure that you mean "how did I (or does someone) develop to the point where it would be possible to use tcc training effectively?"
That's easy enough. Train against non-tcc people using what you've learned in tcc class. Either it will work or you will give up and learn something else.

Tcc is not the problem. It has strikes, kicks, locks, and trips --just as you see in your video. Ah, "but they're done slow in tcc, you say." No they're not. They're done slowly in practice. They use big movements. In a competition, the movements are small.
Anyway, if you practice your stealing step slow, does that mean you can't use it fast.

Afa success, I won some and I lost some. I think that's normal for a martial artist.

I think it's relatively easy to go into tournament competitions. The typical tcc progression does not generally lead to competing, though. However, I'd bet that Any tcc school that sends fighters to comps will do better than the guy in these challenges simply because they send fighters to comps.

PS. my analogy is simple. If someone does tcc and signs up for an mma competition in 3 months, what should he be practicing in the meantime? Ok, suppose it were a swimming meet, or a bike race? If the person doesn't train for the event, it's foolish at best.
Last edited by Steve James on Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 17410
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:16 pm

Steve James wrote:Entering strategy? Didn't have to worry; they were coming at me.

Waitingr your opponent to attack may work in street fight. It won't work for tournament competition.

There was a SC tournament in Taiwan. During the championship fight, both persons waited for the other to attack first. There were no action in all 3 rounds. Both persons were disqualified. The 3rd place became the 1st place. The 4th place became the 2nd place.

Steve James wrote:If someone does tcc and signs up for an mma competition in 3 months, what should he be practicing in the meantime?

The more that we have discussed on this subject, the more that I'm convinced that the true Taiji combat training doesn't exist today.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8730
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:03 pm

It won't work for tournament competition.


That's not true. Besides, I didn't say that I never went forward. I answered your question. Entering was not the problem.

Of course, the second thing is that doing tournaments is irrelevant to using tcc. IF the other guy isn't coming after you, it's not necessary to do anything. I do agree that "tcc" doesn't have a strategy of attack. But, that has to be developed by the person going into the tournament.

The more that we have discussed on this subject, the more that I'm convinced that the true Taiji combat training doesn't exist today.


Naw, if you mean that tcc people don't train for tournaments, it just means that you don't know of any. An old poster on RSF used to have a page dedicated to tcc guys in tournaments. Anyway, I just threw taichi and tournament into Youtube. Here's one example.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrgBUZkazK0

Yeah, I know. It's not tcc. Oh well, maybe that's because of the context. No matter.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 17410
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest