Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:07 pm

“Not even a fly could land”, “he moves I arrive first”, to take always to few get from tui shou, though this is exactly what push hand is designed to teach. Too many believe that they are learning to connect, follow, yield, and push. No in fighting, when one is about to touch you, you should be the void, the essence gone only to be the strike materialized, when one seeks to intercept the strike they become the essence you can use to move their core. This is sensitivity and sticking this is what tui shou is teaching, the wrestling and takedowns we see these days are simply techniques that can be employed during a fight, Chinese martial art is First a striking and finishing art, takedowns, qin na, and grappling are ways to an end, the idea is to finish not subdue.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:36 pm

Steve James wrote:tcc guys in tournaments. Anyway, I just threw taichi and tournament into Youtube. Here's one example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrgBUZkazK0

Yeah, I know. It's not tcc. Oh well, maybe that's because of the context. No matter.

What does that mean if you (general YOU) train Taiji, but you don't use Taiji in tournament fight? If we cannot proved that Taiji is an effective combat art in the past 30 years, I strongly doubt that we can prove Taiji can be an effective combat art in the next 30 years.

We have to be honest to ourselves. I think it's time to draw our conclusion.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:36 pm

"Yeah, I know. It's not tcc. Oh well, maybe that's because of the context. No matter."

It kind of does matter.
Taiji along with much of CMA, as a body of work is one of the few bodies that are allowed the exception In not looking like what they've trained to do by those professing to use it.

A distinction that is not afforded to somebody who does boxing for example , BJJ, or TKD. Were win lose or draw what is done is pretty much reflective of what is trained.

If used as a set of principles applied to physical movement, anything using those principles could be said to be taiji. But it's not.

Context does matter only as far as it may change some of the physical movements or strategies that are allowed or not. It should not change the overall flavor of the movement or Style so drastically that it's no longer recognized as such.

This has been a common complaint about what is called CMA for many years in competitive environments.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:44 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:tcc guys in tournaments. Anyway, I just threw taichi and tournament into Youtube. Here's one example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrgBUZkazK0

Yeah, I know. It's not tcc. Oh well, maybe that's because of the context. No matter.

What does that mean if you (general YOU) train Taiji, but you don't use Taiji in tournament fight? If we cannot proved that Taiji is an effective combat art in the past 30 years, I strongly doubt that we can prove Taiji can be an effective combat art in the next 30 years.

We have to be honest to ourselves. I think it's time to draw our conclusion.


Agree,

for most people usage of the art as in a combative way is not important. This is in turn reflected by the way most teachers approach it and teach it, and those students learning from those teachers who later go on to become teachers themselves.

The problem arises when in some cases the teachers themselves have no way or inclination of testing what they do to understand it.

This is not true for all teachers...
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:01 pm

windwalker wrote:for most people usage of the art as in a combative way is not important. ...

If that's the case, we should be honest to ourselves that we train Taiji for health.

Here is a simple test.

Test 1:

- Your opponent tries to punch your head (body punch won't be counted).
- You try to use one of your Taiji skills to deal with it.
- If your opponent's initial 20 punches can land on your head, you lose that round. Otherwise, you win that round.

Repeat this for 15 rounds and record the result. Whoever wins more than 7 rounds will be the winner.

Test 2:

- You try to use one of your Taiji skills to strike on your opponent's head.
- Your opponent tries to use any MA skill to deal with your Taiji attack.
- If your initial 20 punches can land on your opponent's head, you win that round. Otherwise, you lose that round.

Repeat this for 15 rounds and record the result. Whoever wins more than 7 rounds will be the winner.

If you can repeat both test 1 and test 2 for 1 year, you should be able to develop some effective Taiji skill. If you think Taiji is a wrestling art and not a striking art, you can replace head punch by take down instead.

If you apply this test, which Taiji skill will you use to

- strike on your opponent's head?
- protect your head from striking?
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:05 pm

What does that mean if you (general YOU) train Taiji, but you don't use Taiji in tournament fight?


Well, I'm speaking personally because I don't --can't-- talk about taichi in general. What you're asking is why tcc in a tournament won't look like a tcc form. As I said, it's because it's a tournament with a specific format. If the rules say that you have to wear gloves, can't grab, and can only hit in certain areas, that is what everyone does. It's not a style contest.

If you went into a boxing tournament, wouldn't you practice striking, even though your primary training is in shuaijiao? And, as I said, anyone who been successful in combat sports has adjusted to the competitive context.

Now, afa what someone who practices a certain looks like. It's true that there's no way of tcc "fighting" that one can identify as being strictly taichi. At the same time, people say that tcc is "Formless." Then, they ask what "Formless" looks like. :) Answers get into that philosophical s__t such as "be like water." However, that's precisely it. Ideally, the objective is to respond appropriately to any form of attack. The problem in "real life" is that attacks are random. A competition has a specific format, and one prepares for that.

The question of how to use tcc forms is completely separate from the issue of using taichi principles. If the form movements were merely techniques, they would automatically be limited. For ex., not all are done on both sides (in the form). At the same time, the principle (tactical technique and strategy) of any movement can be used in various contexts.

(Nope, I am not saying that tcc training prepares someone for a bjj match. Then again, neither does shuaijiao training. MMA (especially UFC) began with styles competing against each other. That simply changed. If a tcc guy entered the octagon, he'd like like an mma guy. But, maybe I'm wrong. I just don't think any traditional cma is doing much except in their own contexts. I'm waiting to see bagua and xingyi in the UFC.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:17 pm

Steve James wrote:I am not saying that tcc training prepares someone for a bjj match.

This is why I make the test as simple as "head punch". You should be able to find at least one Taiji move to deal with the head punch. Later on if you replace that head punch to body kick, single leg, double leg, foot sweep, hip throw, ... you can use your Taiji skill to handle many attacks.

- Your opponent tries to punch your head (body punch won't be counted).
- You try to use one of your Taiji skills to deal with it.
- If your opponent's initial 20 punches can land on your head, you lose that round. Otherwise, you win that round.

Repeat this for 15 rounds and record the result. Whoever wins more than 7 rounds will be the winner.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby klonk on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:21 pm

No one took up my remark about steel and cotton. Per the taiji classics, the method is like steel wrapped in cotton. The guy's cotton is there, but where is the steel?

As I previously remarked, that is not uncommon. Even in China, softness in taji is emphasized so much that people forget that business about diametrical opposites, can't think of it at the moment but in daoist philosophy it comes right after wuji.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:24 pm

klonk wrote:The guy's cotton is there, but where is the steel?

IMO, you use soft for defense. You use hard for offense.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby klonk on Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:26 pm

johnwang wrote:
klonk wrote:The guy's cotton is there, but where is the steel?

IMO, you use soft for defense. You use hard for offense.


That is taijiquan as I understand it.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:22 pm

Overlord wrote:A lot of times, so called fast is really not true fast because mind is not catching up with body movements~
When the mind does not match body movements, weakness can occur.

What weakness are you talking about?

When a knife is stabbing into your chest, you don't have time to think. You want your body to react.

One guy attacked me. Suddenly he dropped down right in front of me. I then realized that he just ran into my kick. The thing is, I didn't even remember that I had delivered that kick. My kick just went out by itself without any order from my mind.

My horse ran into the wood. A tree branch was on my chest level. I made a back flip and my feet landed on the ground. If I had to think at that moment, I could be dead. What you may call "weakness - mind is not catching up with body movements", it saved my life.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby klonk on Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:51 pm

A fellow pulled out a knife on me and flipped it open. I took it from his hand, closed the knife, and handed it back to him. "Would you like to try that again?" To this very day, I have no idea what I did there.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby Overlord on Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:42 pm

johnwang wrote:
Overlord wrote:A lot of times, so called fast is really not true fast because mind is not catching up with body movements~
When the mind does not match body movements, weakness can occur.

What weakness are you talking about?

When a knife is stabbing into your chest, you don't have time to think. You want your body to react.

One guy attacked me. Suddenly he dropped down right in front of me. I then realized that he just ran into my kick. The thing is, I didn't even remember that I had delivered that kick. My kick just went out by itself without any order from my mind.

My horse ran into the wood. A tree branch was on my chest level. I made a back flip and my feet landed on the ground. If I had to think at that moment, I could be dead. What you may call "weakness - mind is not catching up with body movements", it saved my life.


John,
Don’t get me wrong, fast reflex and speed, power are all great attributes.
Let us say you try to open a door with key, can you do it with all these attributes?
No you have to do it with Xinyi. This is another side/realm of kungfu which one rarely see even the old days.
But one must have Xinyi able to keep up with opponent speed and power at the beginning, that is fundamental.
Just another perspective.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby klonk on Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:03 pm

Wang is right in this. The good part of taiji is the setup.
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Re: Wei Lei (taiji guy) lost again

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:02 am

Overlord wrote:But one must have Xinyi able to keep up with opponent speed and power at the beginning, that is fundamental.
Just another perspective.

We are talking about the same thing. If you have drilled the XingYi Pi Chuan 100,000 times, when your opponent punches you, you will pull his punching arm down and strike back with Pi without thinking.

This may not apply on my back flip from the horse back. I had never trained that before. I did it because I knew that I had to do it so I won't be killed that day.
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