Bagua Application

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Bagua Application

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:32 pm

From this online clip, I find something that's interested for discussion. When he moves his arm under his opponent's arm, he has put himself into some risks.

His opponent's

1. right elbow joint can side strike on his head.
2. right arm can reverse head lock (guillotine) on his neck.

IMO, it's a bad idea to expose your head like that. He should put his left palm on his opponent's right elbow joint to avoid his opponent's counter. Do you think the original Bagua founder didn't think about this? Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s44_8b4 ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby GrahamB on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:37 pm

Clinching on his back would solve that problem.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby Franklin on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:48 pm

he is doing that by really walking around the guy's arm

here is a clip with some similar entries

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Re: Bagua Application

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:12 pm

GrahamB wrote:Clinching on his back would solve that problem.

The issue is your opponent's right arm can move faster than your footwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPP0z24 ... e=youtu.be

The solution is simple. All you will need is to use your left palm to control your opponent's right elbow joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro41h4R ... e=youtu.be

Even when using wrestling arm drag, you control your opponent's elbow joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcDYAB0ZQN4
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:34 pm

No, you don’t understand the force of torque, if that’s the right word, exerted upon contact, he control the movement of your body.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby meeks on Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:08 pm

johnwang wrote:From this online clip, I find something that's interested for discussion. When he moves his arm under his opponent's arm, he has put himself into some risks.

His opponent's

1. right elbow joint can side strike on his head.
2. right arm can reverse head lock (guillotine) on his neck.

IMO, it's a bad idea to expose your head like that. He should put his left palm on his opponent's right elbow joint to avoid his opponent's counter. Do you think the original Bagua founder didn't think about this? Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s44_8b4 ... e=youtu.be


It's the perfect reason to reiterate the fact that people shouldn't be teaching (finger quotes) 'combat' (finger quotes) if they don't know how to fight.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:34 pm

Also notice the angle of the arm and dynamic contact with the opponents arm as he takes the back. The contact is control, the forearm just below the elbow gives opportunity to track the intent while still controlling not just the arm but the core, there is stil the option of tracking up to the chin to strike or control the head for possible take down. Seems there is much gong taken into account.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby Subitai on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:44 pm

meeks wrote:...snip!

It's the perfect reason to reiterate the fact that people shouldn't be teaching (finger quotes) 'combat' (finger quotes) if they don't know how to fight.



meeks!...thumbs up and +1 dude...you are a God !
Last edited by Subitai on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Subitai wrote:
meeks wrote:...snip!

It's the perfect reason to reiterate the fact that people shouldn't be teaching (finger quotes) 'combat' (finger quotes) if they don't know how to fight.



meeks!...thumbs up and +1 dude...you are a God !


a little confused. Are you both saying the teacher doesn't produce those who do compete
or doesn't or can not use his art as trained?

Many here commented on the skill of those trained using the skill set he trains ...are they wrong or missed something.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIf5gBc ... WL&index=8
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:18 pm

johnwang wrote:From this online clip, I find something that's interested for discussion. When he moves his arm under his opponent's arm, he has put himself into some risks.

His opponent's

1. right elbow joint can side strike on his head.
2. right arm can reverse head lock (guillotine) on his neck.

IMO, it's a bad idea to expose your head like that. He should put his left palm on his opponent's right elbow joint to avoid his opponent's counter. Do you think the original Bagua founder didn't think about this? Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s44_8b4 ... e=youtu.be


He's showing transitions of movement allowing one to get to
the end point of a position.

Had the opponents been able to do anything that you've mentioned he would adjust for
the reasons you've mentioned.

The point I would think would be to build the ability or skill that allows this
type of transition to be used ie the "kung fu" needed t do it, to make it real.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby Subitai on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:50 pm

I wasn't really commenting on any videos or people in particular...I just really agree with the statement that "Meeks" gave. :)

If you're asking me about the husky dude in black shirt? I think he dominated for that rules set. That's a no brainer.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:13 pm

If our downward parry is right on your opponent's elbow joint, or on his upper arm, your downward parry can prevent his arm from bending. The issue is to have that kind of accuracy is very difficult. If your opponent just pulls his arm back for 1 inch, your downward parry may contact on his forearm and lose that control ability.

My teacher told me the following story.

- His teacher used a head lock on him.
- He dodged his head under it.
- His teacher used elbow side strike on his head.
- Next time his teacher used a head lock on him again.
- When he dodged under it, he used the opposite side hand to push on his teacher's elbow joint.
- His teacher used the other hand to push down his elbow pushing hand and back fist on top of his head.

IMO, you don't have the luxury not to use your left hand when you use right arm downward parry.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby GrahamB on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:23 am

From a jiujitsu perspective this is just a very loose, open version of an armdrag to the back. :-\

Going on to controlling his right elbow with your left arm still doesn't solve the problem of distance. If he has distance he can strike/kick/run away. Of course, you can do all these things too, but you give up control.

Control the distance, control the fight.

Seek to remove the distance with a clinch. Clinching is like the "get out of jail free" card if you're comfortable doing it. You can nullify a lot of his striking skill with very little of your own skill. Here are some ideas of where this could go next:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0GVwtF7uVY
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby Dmitri on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:04 am

Biggest problem with the OP clip/move is the one plaguing countless other MA demos -- the relative timing/realism of the setup. It takes him at least 3 steps (while "crossing" his legs, too) to walk around while the other day is magically frozen in time, just standing there waiting with that outstretched arm.
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Re: Bagua Application

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:21 am

Dmitri wrote:Biggest problem with the OP clip/move is the one plaguing countless other MA demos -- the relative timing/realism of the setup. It takes him at least 3 steps (while "crossing" his legs, too) to walk around while the other day is magically frozen in time, just standing there waiting with that outstretched
arm.


How about the ones where one person stands there while the other climbs all over them...any problems with those?
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