Bagua Application

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Bagua Application

Postby GrahamB on Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:50 am

User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11523
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Bagua Application

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:09 pm

GrahamB wrote:From a jiujitsu perspective this is just a very loose, open version of an armdrag to the back. :-\

The term "drag" is the key. When you drag your opponent's arm, if he bends his arm, he will pull your body into him. We have discussed this before. The "grab and pull" is much more powerful than the "sticky".
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8724
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Bagua Application

Postby Dmitri on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:34 pm

windwalker wrote:
Dmitri wrote:Biggest problem with the OP clip/move is the one plaguing countless other MA demos -- the relative timing/realism of the setup. It takes him at least 3 steps (while "crossing" his legs, too) to walk around while the other day is magically frozen in time, just standing there waiting with that outstretched
arm.


How about the ones where one person stands there while the other climbs all over them...any problems with those?

Not sure what you're referring to, do you have a sample clip?
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9545
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Bagua Application

Postby gasmaster on Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:18 pm

Agree with Meeks and a lot of the guys here. It's not that those techniques wont work, but doing them the way he does wont create the force and inward pressure to make it work. He just walks around the arm as if the opponent would do nothing. He doesnt create any inward pressure in order to trap or control the limb and open the outside door. This is just my opinion of course.
Last edited by gasmaster on Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
gasmaster
Great Old One
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:13 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Bagua Application

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:29 pm

gasmaster wrote: He doesnt create any inward pressure in order to trap or control the limb and open the outside door.

The inward pressure needs to be applied right on the elbow joint, or above the elbow joint. If pressure is applied below the elbow joint, your opponent's arm can borrow your force, bend his arm, and ...
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8724
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Bagua Application

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Interesting, what I look at is his overall approach to training, the fact that he fields competitors who compete in open environments using the techniques they've practiced in training.

What he showed was a demo, demonstrating the walking and transition according to their method.

In reality there would be no time to control through pressure as some have suggested using what was demoed and reaching the end point.

The other person would react as some have noted which is why he doesn't control in that way.

What he's doing is a transitional movement. It's understood by both parties, that no one's going to leave their arm out there like that.

Just like in the grappling demo posted no one's going to allow someone to climb all over them like that.

was a little surprised no one asked about what would happen if a person had a unified body or not. Would the attempt to break the others frame still work
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7162
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Bagua Application

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:30 pm

johnwang wrote:The inward pressure needs to be applied right on the elbow joint, or above the elbow joint. If pressure is applied below the elbow joint, your opponent's arm can borrow your force, bend his arm, and ...


Watched it again a couple of times. My thoughts.

Touch and movement is very light because anything heavier would alert the other person to the position change. He is not trying to control as it's done during and before the endpoint of the other person's movement.

He ensures the intent of the other person is still there by tapping the fist as he goes in

In some of the other threads the teachers mention touch. cautioning about using too much pressure, to make a connection.

The tendency of the body to move into the point created by a light touch is being used here. He controls this though touch and spril movement.

You may know in maintis they have what is called leaking hand, in hop gar they use "intercept" the demo seems be done with those ideas in mind.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7162
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Bagua Application

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:41 pm

GrahamB wrote:Would this technique work on her?

https://www.facebook.com/GamologyAsia.K ... 497685017/


Do you mean climbing all over her body for a takedown.
One can only try.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7162
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Bagua Application

Postby Subitai on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:53 pm

windwalker wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Would this technique work on her?

https://www.facebook.com/GamologyAsia.K ... 497685017/


Do you mean climbing all over her body for a takedown.


I think Graham is trying to warn against "trying to chase hands"? Is it? Cause obviously that's bad.

But yeah...if windwalker is talking about clinch, thats different.
Subitai
Anjing
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Re: Bagua Application

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Subitai wrote:
I think Graham is trying to warn against "trying to chase hands"? Is it? Cause obviously that's bad.

But yeah...if windwalker is talking about clinch, thats different.



There is a feeling that one develops. Before, during, after.
All relative to the initiation and ending point of a movement. The idea being able to get inside the ODA loop allowing the advantage to the one who can do this.

Many ways to approach this depending on skill level and method used.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7162
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Bagua Application

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:10 pm

windwalker wrote:Touch and movement is very light because anything heavier would alert the other person to the position change.

You may have to look at this from 2 different angles. If your movement is

- light, you will have no force to borrow, and you won't know your opponent's intention.
- heavy, you will have force to borrow, and you will know your opponent's intention.

This is why you have to give before you can take.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge6-yUs ... e=youtu.be
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8724
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Bagua Application

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:33 am

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:Touch and movement is very light because anything heavier would alert the other person to the position change.

You may have to look at this from 2 different angles. If your movement is

- light, you will have no force to borrow, and you won't know your opponent's intention.
- heavy, you will have force to borrow, and you will know your opponent's intention.

This is why you have to give before you can take.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge6-yUs ... e=youtu.be


Light is relative, based on one's sensitivity and awareness, there's a place between light and heavy where someone with better kungfu can read everything they need to know and more from a lesser skilled opponent, who knows nothing, or at least much less, about the better player. Consequently, they can't find the force to borrow it.

When touching someone of less skill it's likely you know more about them than they know themselves, even.

I've pulled this move off in slap-boxing, and essentially it all comes down to that principle of knowing them without being known. It's kind of like fair lady works shuttles.

The light touch maintained is first a listening point to read the intention as it stirs and change if necessary to block or swallow the movement. If you lean on them too hard then they can respond, and if you don't attach properly, you can't read. It's all about finding that middle.

You can up the success percentage by being smart and attach to control points like the elbow or back of the shoulder, moving from one to the other as you transit and keeping the disconnected arm blocking the clear and limited potential trajectories of the other elbow.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Bagua Application

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:24 pm

oragami_itto wrote:[Light is relative, based on one's sensitivity and awareness, there's a place between light and heavy where someone with better kungfu can read everything they need to know and more from a lesser skilled opponent, who knows nothing, or at least much less, about the better player. Consequently, they can't find the force to borrow it.

Do you always assume that your opponent has

1. less skill than you,
2. equal skill as you, or
3. better skill than you?

I like to assume 2 for the sake of fair discussion. I don't like to assume that A can read B, but B can't read A.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8724
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Bagua Application

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:16 pm

Why assume when one touch will tell you definitively?
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Bagua Application

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:35 pm

Just realized I missed the point of the original question, yeah, going under the arm like that seems risky. I'd prefer to stay on top of/behind the arm.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest