what actually happens when you create springiness

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby everything on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:12 pm

middleway wrote:
The physical changes might be adaptive and not the most significant contributory change - maybe the effects are more about repatterning and reprogamming how the mind is directing and using the body. maybe at the heart of it it's more like learning a technique than "s&c" but rather the technique is one of how to use the body in an inherently different way, which in this case would translate to giving it a developed attribute. The body has some natural levels of elastic quality anyway. That can be enhanced with the specific training but perhaps what it being most enhanced are the way we choose (direct ourselves) to move, use and train the body to manifest; to issue, and act and react to incoming forces. That's not to say 'it's all in the mind', but my hunch would be that the main cause and contributor to an elastic effect is more mental change in repatterning body movement/reactions, than a measurable physical body change. Any physical measurements I've seen around elasticity have only ever shown small increases.


Absolutely, I put Neurology first in list is that it is a massive part of the 'speed' and 'elasticity' puzzle. As you mention the other parts are also likely contributing factors. Muscle responds relatively quickly to demands, so a change here is likely the first 'cab out of the rank' in terms of tissue repatterning.

Everything,

Looking into the Stretch Shortening Cycle is a good plan to understand a bit about elasticity and springiness.

https://www.scienceforsport.com/stretch-shortening-cycle/

A very good coach to check out is Nick Curson at Speed of sport and also the Marinovich system in general. They have a pretty proven track record of increasing athletes speed and explosivness. Nick Curson did a good interview with Joe Rogan on his podcast where he delves into how he trains fighters.

thanks.


Thanks a lot for all this information. It's very interesting. From a theoretical point of view, I'm just very curious about it. From a practical point of view, as a recreational, middle-aged athlete, I think I've improved in technical aspects, but physically, it's getting harder and harder to use speed, agility, etc. However, doing some training exercises seems like it will slow this kind of decline, so definitely want to work on it. Being able to have some decent movement is of course a joy in itself.
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby Yeung on Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:36 am

Your question should be how to improve springiness, and you can monitor your improvement by measuring the range of motions of your joints. The Stretch Shortening Cycle is useless for Taijiquan practitioners if they are not using brute force.
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby middleway on Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:36 am

Your question should be how to improve springiness, and you can monitor your improvement by measuring the range of motions of your joints. The Stretch Shortening Cycle is useless for Taijiquan practitioners if they are not using brute force.


No one was talking about Tai chi Practitioners. 'Lightness skill' (qing gong) is springyness and it permiates many systems, Xing Yi and Ba Gua utilize 'Lightness' skill alot.

Also i fail to see how ROM relates to springiness. Some people are hypermobile in their joints but have no elasticity, they are extremely prone to joint injuries (my wife has this exact problem). They are most definately not springy.
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby middleway on Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:37 am



Some traditional methods for training 'Springiness' at the start of this video.
Last edited by middleway on Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby marvin8 on Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:05 am

Excerpt from "stretch shortening cycle," http://davidpotach.com/stretch-shortening-cycle/:
David Potach on Sep 18, 2012 wrote:The Stretch Shortening Cycle (SSC) employs the energy storage capabilities of the elastic components (SEC) and stimulation of the stretch reflex to facilitate a maximal increase in muscle recruitment over a minimal amount of time. The SSC involves three distinct phases

Phase I is the eccentric phase, which involves preloading the muscle group(s). During this phase, the SEC stores elastic energy, and the muscle spindles are stimulated. As the muscle spindles are stretched, they send a signal to the spinal cord. To visualize the eccentric phase, consider the long jump. The time from touchdown of the foot to the bottom of the movement is the eccentric phase. . . .


School of HKR, Memorial University
Published on Jan 6, 2016
With Dr. David Behm

Stretch Shortening Cycle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s12Cbb4lexA
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:09 am

Maybe one can cheat springiness wearing a superhero spandex suit under the silk pajama ? Could be an alternative for the lazy ones, or an extra kick in for the already springy.……I read somewhere that sprinters wearing such fabrics(not the silk) get more bite in the gait .
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby everything on Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:13 am

Really interesting videos, thanks a lot.

From a practical application pov, I've posted about this a lot. Mostly nowadays as a middle-aged rec athlete, I play too much football (soccer) and futsal. I look at my movement, and I tend to do the "old man shuffle". Keep things easier on the joints and body. However, I will still bust out a few moves.

What I find is I need whatever it is plyometrics does in my foot/ankle joints. Various ligaments, tendons, including Achilles tendon need strength and pliability. Plus full body twisting and turning for feint movements and change of direction, sudden sprints, sudden braking, incidental push hands, etc.. So it's an all over "springiness", explosiveness, etc. kind of quality. Very overlapping with attributes you want in MA.

So not unlike what bagua training probably gives. I found picking up a kettlebell and doing a few basic exercises seems to nearly instantly impart some feeling of improved "springiness". Getting "open" joints at the end of the kb swing movement for example, then compress down, then spring back up, is remarkable. Kind of "resets" and "energizes" everything. Really more of a warm-up, but it's also good training. Doing really static or dynamic stretching doesn't do this. Neither does qigong (what I consider qigong) like taiji form.
Last edited by everything on Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby Peacedog on Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:31 am

Food for thought.

In terms of lightness training, I've seen a combination of several phenomena.

Learning to take advantage of the flexing/absorbing of kinetic energy under a load in the tendons and releasing it is a big one. Jumping and rebounding via skipping is a big example of that or plyometric training.


Long term practitioners of the more internal tendon training methods appear to develop a limited ability to contract/expand the tendons/fasciae/whatever upon demand. I don't know if this is simply the ability to release stored kinetic energy within these tissues or some kind of neurological control of poorly innervated tissue.


Properly utilizing breathwork/breath retention seems to inflate the tendons in an odd manner. Weightlifters use this mechanism when they valsalva and rebound weights out of the bottom of a squat or at the start of a heavy press.

Finally, yes, I've seen purely qigong based mechanisms do this as well by generating a sensation of lightness in the body. In practice this can result in greatly improved endurance when running/covering distance. When someone is doing this while running they seem to almost bounce off of the ground.

I'm met people who could do this naturally as well and, most interestingly, it does not appear to have anything to do with bodyweight. While most common in skinnier people, I once knew an obsese Navy SEAL commander who could run a 6-7 minute mile, mile after mile, at altitude while doing this. It was quite a sight to see a 260 pound man in his 40's doing this in Kabul around a HQ compound.
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby everything on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:50 am

Some of it could be pain tolerance haha. But seriously, whatever it is that allows the body to deal with those forces must be part of it. A while back, we talked about a gymnastics instructor who went out and did a marathon with no training, but he could only do it because absorbing those repetitive forces was relatively light vs. the much harder forces the gymnasts deal with.

I don't know the technical specifics, but elite sprinters' feet touch down for measurable shorter period of time with each step. So "qing gong" is happening. Seems to include the people who weight a lot.

It's fascinating to me theoretically, but practically I want to work on it at hobby level. For me as a middle-aged rec athlete, I don't have delusions of grandeur to get those skills. It's more about degrading as gracefully as possible. Not being able to be cat-like at a truly high level. Although I love that "old ninja" move haha.
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:45 am

A friend who ran and did taijiquan recommended chi runningn to me. Apparently it helped her run much more efficiently.

https://www.chirunning.com/
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Re: what actually happens when you create springiness

Postby everything on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:06 pm

yeah that makes a lot of sense to me.

RANT:
personally i think running (more than a few miles at a time) is pretty much the worst possible exercise one can do. so much repetitive stress. every marathoner i know ends up suffering. there are way so many more fun and better ways to get cardio and way better ways to find "zen". if you do MA or zhan zhuang for example, you should find your "zen" and "center" instantly. not require stupid 26.2 mile runs that you brag about on your car. ok, that said, i do a lot of running, but it's all while chasing a ball, and highly varied motion running, not straight line, repetitive stress running. sorry to offend if anyone here is a "serious" runner.
END RANT
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