What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:43 am

dspyrido wrote:The problem with this sort of training is that it's a specialisation. I think specialisations should only be done after the fundamentals are in place. Then the decision of where to specialise can be based on personal preference and with full awareness of why.

Assume your goal is to be able to use foot sweep to take down everybody on this planet.

- What kind foundation do you need?
- How to develop your foundation?
- How long do you need to make your foundation solid?

IMO, all the foundation needed for applying foot sweep can be developed by doing foot sweep.

I don't believe training such as

- sitting meditation
- standing posture (ZZ)
- Taiji PH
- solo form training
- inner awareness
- self cultivation

can help you to build foundation for your foot sweep.
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby dspyrido on Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:30 pm

johnwang wrote:IMO, all the foundation needed for applying foot sweep can be developed by doing foot sweep.

I don't believe training such as

- sitting meditation
- standing posture (ZZ)
- Taiji PH
- solo form training
- inner awareness
- self cultivation

can help you to build foundation for your foot sweep.


Ok I guess you're saying - if I need to learn how to punch and kick then it can be learnt while focusing in on how it relates to foot sweep mastery. Is this correct?

If so this still ticks the fundamentals of basics - how to move, kick, punch, grab etc but in the end still needs to be learnt in isolation and pieced together. The problem I can see - one super strategy that if the opponent knows can then preempt it and counter it but I guess we can go in circles with this one. I'm a believer of refining a set of great moves but one move that no can defend seems to have a weakness.

Regarding the list:

- PH can help with the ability to adapt and change and create openings.

- Solo forms are a good way to refine movement and to continue training even after the body is exhausted and to help with recovery.

- Inner awareness means it can tap into muscles that people are not normally aware of.

- ZZ enables learning to remove tension which boosts speed and ability to adapt

- Self cultivation is a good way to learn to be at peace while we struggle with the human condition, tap into for awareness and to help avoid reverting to other vices - hey it's not all just about the foot sweep....
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:52 am

johnwang wrote:If you repeat this combo 2,000 times daily with your partner (about 2 hours), in 2 years you have repeated this 2 x 365 x 2000 = 1,460,000 times.

After you have drilled this move almost 1.5 million times, when you use it against your opponent, your successful rate should be high.
johnwang wrote:When I

- was a beginner, I train "finish move" by using this method.
- am no longer a beginner, I train "entering strategy" by using this method.

Here is an "entering strategy" training.

Image

Drilling "entering strategy" with an opponent that freezes will not prepare one to headlock an opponent that kicks, punches, moves, etc. The problem is your drill itself (e.g., the set up, assumptions, expectations) not about sparring.

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:The problem with this sort of training is that it's a specialisation. I think specialisations should only be done after the fundamentals are in place. Then the decision of where to specialise can be based on personal preference and with full awareness of why.

Assume your goal is to be able to use foot sweep to take down everybody on this planet.

- What kind foundation do you need?
- How to develop your foundation?
- How long do you need to make your foundation solid?

IMO, all the foundation needed for applying foot sweep can be developed by doing foot sweep.

One can drill throwing a right hand punch 1.5 million times for two years. But, that doesn't mean one will knock out everybody on this planet. Same with foot sweep. It's not only the "technique" that is important which has been mentioned multiple times in this thread. Training a tai chi movement is not about training only a "technique."
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:14 am

marvin8 wrote:Drilling "entering strategy" with an opponent that freezes will not prepare one to headlock an opponent that kicks, punches, moves, etc.

You are confused with the "developing stage" vs. "testing stage". Many people mix both training stages together. SC keeps both stages separate. You have to develop a skill 1st before you can test it. After the "developing stage", you have to compete in tournament and test your skill against strangers.

In the following clip, when you train "hip throw", your opponent just "freeze" there and let you to throw him. This is the way SC was trained and developed.

Last edited by johnwang on Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:50 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Drilling "entering strategy" with an opponent that freezes will not prepare one to headlock an opponent that kicks, punches, moves, etc.

You are confused with the "developing stage" vs. "testing stage". Many people mix both training stages together. SC keeps both stages separate. You have to develop a skill 1st before you can test it. After the "developing stage", you have to compete in tournament and test your skill against strangers.

No. I am talking about drilling "entering strategy" in the "developing stage" for self-defense where one needs to defend against kicks, punches, movement, etc.

johnwang wrote:In the following clip, when you train "hip throw", your opponent just "freeze" there and let you to throw him. This is the way SC was trained and developed.


However, that is training throws for shuai chiao competition, not self-defense where there are no rules.
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:06 am

johnwang wrote:I don't believe training such as

- sitting meditation
- standing posture (ZZ)
- Taiji PH
- solo form training
- inner awareness
- self cultivation

can help you to build foundation for your foot sweep.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ZZ and solo-form part of Shuaijiao's basic training as well?

As for PH, in Zhaobao and Wu style Taiji, there are actually quite a lot of throwing and takedown techniques that involve foot sweeps.

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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby Trick on Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:04 am

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:The problem with this sort of training is that it's a specialisation. I think specialisations should only be done after the fundamentals are in place. Then the decision of where to specialise can be based on personal preference and with full awareness of why.

Assume your goal is to be able to use foot sweep to take down everybody on this planet.

- What kind foundation do you need?
- How to develop your foundation?
- How long do you need to make your foundation solid?

IMO, all the foundation needed for applying foot sweep can be developed by doing foot sweep.

I don't believe training such as

- sitting meditation
- standing posture (ZZ)
- Taiji PH
- solo form training
- inner awareness
- self cultivation

can help you to build foundation for your foot sweep.

My experience of foot sweep defense against people’s that practiced ‘external’ foot sweep 8-)

I’ve done a fair share of free sparring and also foot sweeping training during my “Karate years”. So that probably is ingrained in my marrow, once you learned bicycling you’ll never forget(or something like that )

Then many years went by basically doing only internal Chinese martial arts taolu/zz practices till I one day met an foot sweeping Taiji teacher, I managed quite good in our first encounter(kind of an challenge freePH encounter, of which I was not forewarned there could be foot sweeping done too)

Also, back in during my karate days I was heavily into form practice, but when stepping up into the advanced classes at our school a lot of free sparring was a big part of those classes, I was surprised how well my foot sweep and kick defenses by raising my leg(s) worked, I for sure acknowledge that skill to two particular forms/katas I had practiced extensively......I’ve kept one of those forms to this day, although a simple Kata it’s a treasure worth keeping. In its outer shape it has a lot resemblance to Xing/Xingyi Quan. Adding ‘inner’ methods to it makes it even more interesting......

Forms and ZZ hold great value if understood. But that can only happen through practice, correctly practiced..
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:08 am

C.J.W. wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ZZ and solo-form part of Shuaijiao's basic training as well?

You have to "develop" a skill" before you can "polish" and "enhance" it. That 2 year is to develop a skill. You then will have the rest of your life to use

- solo drill to polish, and
- equipment training to enhance.

The reason that you should take this sequence is simple. You can still do your form and ZZ when you are 80 years old. But you can only develop your foot sweep when you are still young (assume in your training, you will sweep your opponent down, and also allow your opponent to sweep you down).
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:45 pm

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't ZZ and solo-form part of Shuaijiao's basic training as well?

You have to "develop" a skill" before you can "polish" and "enhance" it. That 2 year is to develop a skill. You then will have the rest of your life to use

- solo drill to polish, and
- equipment training to enhance.

The reason that you should take this sequence is simple. You can still do your form and ZZ when you are 80 years old. But you can only develop your foot sweep when you are still young (assume in your training, you will sweep your opponent down, and also allow your opponent to sweep you down).

In order to "develop" a skill," you have to honestly drill that skill. If you want to train defending a punch (e.g., parrying, arm wrapping), your partner should throw an actual punch (not freeze). Your rhino guard drill with feeder freezing their punch failed to develop arm wrapping skill as seen in your "rhino guard pressure test" video.

C.J.W. wrote:As for PH, in Zhaobao and Wu style Taiji, there are actually quite a lot of throwing and takedown techniques that involve foot sweeps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjgG_pDB_I4

The Taiji PH drill not only trains technique but also how to set up (apply) the technique by training listening, transforming, timing, distance etc. Judo trains uchikomi and moving uchikomi before testing or sparring. Is listening, transforming, timing, distance etc. really important? If so, one shouldn't train only "technique" (even 1.25 million times over 2 years) without developing the necessary skills to apply it.
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:05 pm

johnwang wrote:You have to "develop" a skill" before you can "polish" and "enhance" it. That 2 year is to develop a skill. You then will have the rest of your life to use

- solo drill to polish, and
- equipment training to enhance.

The reason that you should take this sequence is simple. You can still do your form and ZZ when you are 80 years old. But you can only develop your foot sweep when you are still young (assume in your training, you will sweep your opponent down, and also allow your opponent to sweep you down).


Ok so you're saying it is ok to zz & solo at some point after the physical skills are in place.

But why wait 2 years. Why not do the solid physical training together with the solo, zz & other stuff? The refinement can come from solo work which can also be used to help with recovery.

I agree I wouldn't put the "internal" ahead of the physical. It's more sensible to practise the physical first and refine.

Also I think new skills can be learnt later in life. Helps to have been physical when younger but they can developed.
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:17 am

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:The problem with this sort of training is that it's a specialisation. I think specialisations should only be done after the fundamentals are in place. Then the decision of where to specialise can be based on personal preference and with full awareness of why.

Assume your goal is to be able to use foot sweep to take down everybody on this planet.

- What kind foundation do you need?
- How to develop your foundation?
- How long do you need to make your foundation solid?

IMO, all the foundation needed for applying foot sweep can be developed by doing foot sweep.

I don't believe training such as

- sitting meditation
- standing posture (ZZ)
- Taiji PH
- solo form training
- inner awareness
- self cultivation

can help you to build foundation for your foot sweep.



John, the art of ZZ is not seen in plain sight.
Try this first, you close your eyes do ZZ, then ask your friends to check if your pose moves when eyes closed.
-saber-


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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby Bob on Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:35 pm

I told a martial arts friend about the xing yi story of the student who only practiced beng for x number of years and when his classmates challenged him (they learned 5 elements, 12 animals etc. etc) he defeated them without effort. I then asked him, this practitioner teaches writing at the introductory college level, what he thought about gist of this post - his response:

"If I could write one paragraph over and over for 2 years, then I could become a really good writer!"

What could I say? LOL
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby Storm on Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:50 pm

Fighting is not writing or writing about fighting so the analogy is bad.
It's a skill developed with repetitions- I think we all agree on that. It's just the number of techniques and repetitions which are debated.
There are some very effective styles based on a reduced number of techniques/concepts. Itto ryu for example, boxing or even Xingyi quan. A reduced number of techniques leads automatically to a higher number of repetitions considering the same time invested compared to a style with a big curriculum.
Last edited by Storm on Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:04 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby johnwang on Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:20 pm

Overlord wrote:John, the art of ZZ is not seen in plain sight.
Try this first, you close your eyes do ZZ, then ask your friends to check if your pose moves when eyes closed.

During the 70th, SC guys in Beijing and Tinjing trained on the spot. Only the Mongolian SC guys tained during running. This made the Mongolian SC guys had stronger endurance and won all the SC matches in the 70th.

In this clip, you can see their training is the opposite of the ZZ training.

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Re: What if you just train one technique for the next 2 years?

Postby Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:18 pm

johnwang wrote:
Overlord wrote:John, the art of ZZ is not seen in plain sight.
Try this first, you close your eyes do ZZ, then ask your friends to check if your pose moves when eyes closed.

During the 70th, SC guys in Beijing and Tinjing trained on the spot. Only the Mongolian SC guys tained during running. This made the Mongolian SC guys had stronger endurance and won all the SC matches in the 70th.

In this clip, you can see their training is the opposite of the ZZ training.



One training does not discard another.
I love training when running.
However, there are certain things cannot be trained when running.

Like I say, you do ZZ with eyes closed 15 mins ask your friend to check the following
1, Are you wobbly during ZZ
2, Are your unbalanced btw right and left
3, Is your hip tilted to one side

It’s simple science and very easy to test. Just remain still.
In fact it’s easier than running and training.
Let me know how you go. Otherwise there is nothing to talk, just focus on you running training.
Cheers,
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