Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

[Strange]

the dish is not cook, if you take out of the fire to eat,
it has a funny taste

[BruceP]

Here's an interesting Greco - Roman match that illustrates several issues from some other threads. The only thing that interests me here is how I could identify (or differentiate) the tcc energies in examples like this

The most glaring examples show up at certain times during the match;

At 3:08, the Cuban applies Shuck/Pull-down and again at 3:40

At 6:14, the Cuban applies Ward-off, and again at 6:28.

At 6:46, the Turk applies Push transitioning to Shoulder-Strike followed by Pull-Down. The Cuban is very reserved with his forward pressure throughout the match and it's one of the only times that he over-extends enough that the Turk has the opportunity to apply Pull-Down.

At 7:06, the Turk applies his own Ward-Off

At 8:28 both men lock up with Press

Elbow and Roll-Back are prevalent throughout the match, but the G-R format doesn't allow enough use of legs to create opportunities for Split to be applied.

[Steve James]

Here's an interesting Greco - Roman match that illustrates several issues from some other threads. The only thing that interests me here is how I could identify (or differentiate) the tcc energies in examples like this

The most glaring examples show up at certain times during the match;

At 3:08, the Cuban applies Shuck/Pull-down and again at 3:40

At 6:14, the Cuban applies Ward-off, and again at 6:28.

At 6:46, the Turk applies Push transitioning to Shoulder-Strike followed by Pull-Down. The Cuban is very reserved with his forward pressure throughout the match and it's one of the only times that he over-extends enough that the Turk has the opportunity to apply Pull-Down.

At 7:06, the Turk applies his own Ward-Off

At 8:28 both men lock up with Press

Elbow and Roll-Back are prevalent throughout the match, but the G-R format doesn't allow enough use of legs to create opportunities for Split to be applied.

Okay, so you're arguing that these things are not unique to tcc. Therefore, there's no need for a push hands tournament.

[BruceP]

Okay, so you're arguing that these things are not unique to tcc.

Not so much an argument as a statement of fact. The energies are nothing more than ideas which can be/are applied to all kinds of movement, and interactive contact while standing and floor-hugging/ground-fighting. I've been saying the same thing about tjq's energies since the early days of Cyberkwoon. Heretical stuff back then...but it's more along the lines of what you wrote in your first reply to this thread.

Therefore, there's no need for a push hands tournament

That conclusion doesn't necessarily follow the above statement. Greco-Roman wrestling is what it is and tjq is what it is.

TJQ applies the ideas/energies according to a specific set of principles and methods. Competition that is engaged for the sake of winning often draws the competitor away from the integrity of those principles and methods.

[Steve James]

That conclusion doesn't necessarily follow the above statement. Greco-Roman wrestling is what it is and tjq is what it is.

TJQ applies the ideas/energies according to a specific set of principles and methods. Competition that is engaged for the sake of winning often draws the competitor away from the integrity of those principles and methods.

From your perspective, they are ideas that can be applied to all movements. I don't disagree, but the debate about whether the tcc jin are comparable to the forces used in modern athletics is by no means agreed upon by the tcc community. That's why I asked the question.

Anyway, my main point was that it's not unexpected that a pushing competition will look like wrestling. I.e., it will not look like what people expect of tcc. That's how it is, though it may change.

You write that competition draws the participant away from the principles, yet are able to identify those principles in a Greco Roman match. I'd argue that tcc practitioners might benefit from competing against Greco Roman matches, and vice versa. It's a much bigger world. I don't think they will receive much credit in the tcc community (or the communities that talk about tcc) precisely because it will "look like wrestling" or "look like kickboxing."

Up front, I don't believe in "tcc" or "push hands" competitions at all. Imo, tcc martial artists must compete again other martial arts and artists. Not that I think competition is necessary at all. I'm just saying that if one wants to compete in a context, one needs to practice against that context. Tcc tournaments just seem to be a way to avoid general competition. Hence, many supposed representatives of tcc look like they don't know anything. As I said, those who are successful are often derided because they weren't doing tcc.

[BruceP]

From your perspective, they are ideas that can be applied to all movements. I don't disagree, but the debate about whether the tcc jin are comparable to the forces used in modern athletics is by no means agreed upon by the tcc community. That's why I asked the question

Not all movements, but most of the common ones.

You write that competition draws the participant away from the principles, yet are able to identify those principles in a Greco Roman match. I'd argue that tcc practitioners might benefit from competing against Greco Roman matches, and vice versa. It's a much bigger world

I wasn't referring to any of the principles in giving examples of where the 8 'energies'/Gates were applied during the match. The eight are ideas just like the movements/sequences in the form(s). Humans use the 8 to perform many different tasks, but don't necessarily perform those tasks using tcc's principles and methods.

Imo, tcc martial artists must compete again other martial arts and artists. Not that I think competition is necessary at all. I'm just saying that if one wants to compete in a context, one needs to practice against that context.

Absolutely.

[johnwang]

Black cat or whit cat, if it can

- catch rat, it's good cat.
- not catch rat, it's bad cat.

After this many years, we should accept that the Taiji combat training was long gone.

[BruceP]

After this many years, we should accept that the Taiji combat training was long gone.

Maybe it was never really there. Maybe it was all 'supplemented' according to context. Maybe it was so sublime that it went unnoticed.

[johnwang]

After this many years, we should accept that the Taiji combat training was long gone.

Maybe it was never really there. Maybe it was all 'supplemented' according to context. Maybe it was so sublime that it went unnoticed.

We may never be able to prove one way or another. Long fist grand master Han Ching-Tan once challenged Yang Chen-Fu but was stopped. Trying to verify whether or not that Taiji guys could fight existed even before our generation.

[cloudz]

From the 2018 rules.

Permitted techniques

Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Kao & Zhou (forearm only not point of elbow).

No points are awarded if the opponent is brought off balance with other techniques.

Offences

In all pushing hands events, it is not permitted to:

• Attack the crotch, or hit the head, neck or throat.
• Attack with the elbow, knee or stretched fingers (knife hand).
• Punch, kick, bite, spit, pull hair or clothing.
• Apply a sustained lock to a joint for any period of time or with the use of force or in any way except as transition through a recognised technique
• Precede a push with a blow or thump.
• Grasp or pick up the legs.
• Attack the joints.
• Kick
• Use over head or back throws.
• Attack after the referee has stopped the match.
• Offer dissent with or without rough language.
• Purposely press on the breasts (ladies).

In the comps I referenced there are two rulesets of moving step; one allows the leg attacks the other doesn't.
This is definitely the case for Europe, i would need to double check on the others, but I'm pretty sure the british has this now too.
Not too sure about London as the numbers in attendance are not that high to have 2 moving step categories. When I last went they just had the one.

Also whilst they do say no over the head or over the back throws _ I've seen them and i don't think I'm being biased when I say a nice clean technique would get scored even if it encroached on the rule. So something like a hip throw would be permitted. When I spoke about 'going flying' that was at the British well over 10 years ago and that technique would probably be classed as an over the shoulder throw, but it scored and won the guy the match.

[cloudz]

Here's something that shows the british open - older footage.
But you can see techniques that involve the leg, a guy goes flying over 'the top'..

That happens to be Sami Berik who went on to fight in MMA.
he cut his teeth at the Brirish open Tuishou and full contact (sanda/ san shou)

I am just posting this to show that tai chi comps can be done well and cater for both people that just want to grapple or do something involving strikes too.
The stand up grappling should at the very least allow trip and sweeps techniques. I really don't see the big deal to be all negative about them at all.

Good comps can and do exist, The Chen Zonghua one organized in China seems to have a decent standard for example.

[cloudz]

Anyway, my main point was that it's not unexpected that a pushing competition will look like wrestling. I.e., it will not look like what people expect of tcc. That's how it is, though it may change.

LOL.

You write that competition draws the participant away from the principles, yet are able to identify those principles in a Greco Roman match. I'd argue that tcc practitioners might benefit from competing against Greco Roman matches, and vice versa. It's a much bigger world. I don't think they will receive much credit in the tcc community (or the communities that talk about tcc) precisely because it will "look like wrestling" or "look like kickboxing."

Err. what's new and who cares?
I think "the community" for the most part doesn't know it's arse from it's elbow when it comes to fighting.

Up front, I don't believe in "tcc" or "push hands" competitions at all. Imo, tcc martial artists must compete again other martial arts and artists. Not that I think competition is necessary at all. I'm just saying that if one wants to compete in a context, one needs to practice against that context. Tcc tournaments just seem to be a way to avoid general competition. Hence, many supposed representatives of tcc look like they don't know anything. As I said, those who are successful are often derided because they weren't doing tcc.

This is an incredibly bad argument really. Judo doesn't suffer because they don't regularly compete against wrestlers. The purpose is not about going against freestyle wrestlers at their own game. But anyone is free of course to persue other martial avenues - people can and do. I know of some TCC guys that competed succesfully at Chinese wrestling comps. Further proof that it can be a good breeding ground and stepping stone - a solid foundation for further progression.

Like someone might progress from boxing to MT to MMA - or whatever really - wrestling to BJJ great, taiji grappling to BJJ, wonderbar! You can either discern your reasons fo specialization or not, You either have a criteria to accept rulesets or not.

[Steve James]

Well, you argue that a guy who competed in push hands went on to compete in mma. My point was that he will look like others doing mma, not like someone doing tcc. Graham asked to be proved wrong that phs comps were just wrestling. I think you're proving his point.

However, I am not against phs comps because of the techniques used. I against them because phs is not a competition where the object is to win. Once winning is the objective, the participants are sparring or fighting.

Sure, judoka enter mma, so do wrestlers and strikers from other arts. That's what mma is.

Back when I competed, there were no push hands or tcc or ima tournaments. There were just tournaments open to all martial arts. That's what I think should happen.

[cloudz]

I think you have got grahams point all wrong.

He is more than well aware they look like grappling and wrestling rather than some idealised thing in my opinion.
His point was that they are an over restrictive form of wrestling/ grappling (which they obviously are a form of; duh.) BUT that all the "fun" (read: good, perhaps..) moves are taken out or missing from them.

I think you have completely misread that his point was about how they looked. The 'wrestling' part is not in doubt at all, that they look like what they are.
He wants us to "prove" to him that they are fun as they are - without all the things he thinks should be included to make it fun and worthwhile.

Anyway if you're still not sure you can always ask him to clarify his intentions.
Good luck, because i do wonder if he himself is even clear what his intentions really are or were, other than to have a cheap and easy pop at something on here.

Regards how they look and what they are called; i've been making that point for ages, I have actually gotten bored of it and moved on.
If people are really dumb enough to expect something looking like the co - operative drills found out there - they are really too far in cuckoo land to give a shit about.

[cloudz]

Competitive push hands is a form of grappling wrestling simply by definition; anything else is a pure nonsense which I think no one credible would even bother to make a thing of. Hence why I tend to ignore it. If that is the point of this, then what can I say. Another waste of time (comp) push hands thread, woop!

You want to get past the point where everyone is still getting hung up on the semantics of calling these "push hands" comps. I don't really actually think people are stuck on that bit anymore so much. Just that they're not fans of the thing itself in relation to TCC; whatever name it goes by.