Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:20 pm

Steve James wrote: l'm just saying that this is the way it was. Fun, too. (Don't bother telling me it looks like kickboxing, not tcc).



It doesn't, it has the flavor of your teachers training used real time. At most I would comment on the foot work. This also may be what was trained.


The most that anyone could ask for and what I look for is whether the training is reflective of usage. In the clip posted it's very reflective used in a free form way.

understand your teacher passed away a few years back may he rest in peace, hopefully he developed some students to carry on his traditions.

Agree pretty much with what you wrote about the push hands. IME, higher level skilled people I've met don't compete but do engage with people testing themselves.

respect is gained by using the same skill sets that they restrict themselves to and practice with. This means that even if one was to win using another method or some other way people wouldn't think too much of it.

Whether this translates into combative usage or even something that people can use in competitive events it's not exactly clear.

what I've found is that people who play push hand have a lot of bad habits developed from the practice but used in the practice it makes sense.

"bad habits" I should add of the ones I've met, also In the process of getting rid of within my self in my own work.

As training tool it can be quite useful, as a competitive event for me it seems to specialized, not something I find interesting but understand others may. Not my thing
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:57 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:Don't bother telling me it looks like kickboxing, not tcc.

Here is my concern. If I want to fight like a kickboxing, or Sanda, or wrestler, I will train kickboxing, or Sanda, or wrestling. Why should I train Taiji?


You mean "Why should I do the tcc form?" or "Why do slow movements if I eventually want to move fast?" or "Why train soft when I have to be hard?" Those are normal questions, in fact. That's what everyone who doesn't do tcc probably asks, and what everyone who does tcc be able to demonstrate.

Tcc is a form of Chinese boxing. Period. I understand in shuai jiao, the way you train looks just like your practice. That doesn't necessarily apply to tcc because (as Bruce P suggested) tcc techniques/jins/etc are ideas that can be applied to movement. Sure, many people will argue that it's the internal strength that defines tcc. But, those people don't focus much on tcc form at all.

Anyway, as I said from the beginning, I don't think it's necessary to have separate competitions for tcc. I also believe that competitors adjust to the rules of the competitions and their requirements. For ex., if you enter a contest with a good muay thai fighter, you will need to defend yourself, and/or you will need to stop him.

If someone is able to explain how an arm drag or a throw can be expressed using tcc, I can explain how a punch, elbow, or knee can. It doesn't matter if anyone believes or thinks it's un-taichi. When you're fighting a guy who's doing flying eagle kicks at your head, you don't worry about whether it looks like you're doing tcc. Ymmv.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:02 pm

Windy, what I respected about him was that he'd spar with the students to demonstrate. Anyway, I had to look up something. It explains the context. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Jow_Pai
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Trip on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:26 pm

:)
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby everything on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:57 pm

Here's some good stuff at a high level. Of course you're going to "force" things a little because
1. you have to take the initiative
2. you have to put your opponent on his/her back, not just push them out of circle or make them touch a knee down, etc.
but there is some nice listening and borrowing . yeah let's beat the dead horse. it's fun.

Last edited by everything on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:01 pm

Here's another tournament from the 80s. Skip to 1:00 for the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc4YKgNpyBc
Last edited by Steve James on Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby everything on Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:05 pm

dunno what to think of it from the MA critique pov, but
1. love that throw at 1:39
2. looks like it was fun
3. love the time capsule element
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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