Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

[Steve James]

As for tai chi guys needing to get out more, they should bring in more. Organizers of PH competitions should go out of their way to include Greco-Roman and Freestyle wrestlers, as well as Judo and Sambo players, in their tournaments.

I agree, but I think it'd be better to just call it a wrestling competition, and even allow striking. However, that's in terms of competition. Not everyone will or ought to compete.

Hey, when I see examples of Chen push hands done by "masters," it looks completely different from any competition that I've seen. I don't think it's a question of level. I think that two relatively evenly matched competitors will have to struggle to win. Imo, that doesn't mean that they corrupt their form; it's that they illustrate their true form. And, almost inevitably, it looks similar to what everyone else looks like.

In 1990, when I first heard of the Chen village push hands tournaments, I was told that it would illustrate the superiority of "real" tcc and internal strength. When I saw videos of Chen push hands, they were like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XALpOmuQR88&t=226s

I naturally expected to see something similar at a competition. That didn't happen. There was nothing wrong with what I saw, but it was not special. Moreover, the competition looked nothing like the practice. At best, there was a back and forth once or twice and then they grappled. Why don't the masters grapple that way? I'd really like someone to explain when this form of push hands started?

A better example would be this old one of CXW "pushing" with someone competitively (?).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pip97t50XbE

My point has nothing to do with the skills involved. My point is that competition ruins a practice that has value on its own beyond winning or losing. If an elderly person is learning tcc, for ex., is it even worth it for him to go past the form?

[GrahamB]

Steve - to be fair to CXW, that's not a push hands match at all, despite what it looks like and the YouTube description, as I found out only recently and blogged about:

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... nge-video/

In Chen village they engage in a type of Shuai Jiao, that seems to be more for competing with. Push hands is separate.

First hand account: http://www.chenvillage.com/whats-pushing-hands

Bruce- nice one, Stephan Kesting is a great guy and has contributed a lot many people's knowledge with his videos.

[Steve James]

In Chen village they engage in a type of Shuai Jiao, that seems to be more for competing with. Push hands is separate.

I wasn't trying to disparage CXW, I was just pointing out that competition doesn't look like "push hands." You're right that the competition in the village looks like Shuai jiao -- but they call it a push hands competition. Imo, it's an unnecessary confusion.

Hey, I have a friend who won the Chen village competition, but he also did judo. Two guys at my first school were NCAA wrestlers, but we really didn't grapple. Many of the students back then had prior martial arts experience, including Golden Gloves. I have nothing against competition. All I've said is that I'm against "push hands" tournaments. Nope, I have no experience with them except watching a few at tournaments that some would say are bogus anyway.

[everything]

light randori is not the same as shiai. same with light rolling vs. a bjj tournament. same with an easy pickup game vs. an official match with a ref, scoreboard, etc. not sure why push hands would be any different. I think we're beating up a straw man pretty well, though.

[cloudz]

I think when somebody resorts to ad hominem attacks (also with wrong facts, in this case) instead of debating the point of the thread then it says perhaps more about their character, and it's better to just not engage with them. But since you asked me and I respect you, I've answered. I don't see what it's got to do with the question I asked at the start of this thread.

Hope everybody gets back to training at some point.

G

It really wasn't meant as some "attack" on you, it was something I recalled that had been mentioned.
I'm sure you have heard of the old adage; "don't knock it untill you've tried it."
That was my message to you, if you find that offensive, then clearly your skin is a little on the thin side.

It wasn't trying to point out a lack of anything, only that if you want to compare it to what you have done/ "other fun stuff".. the least you could do is go and compete in push hands to find out for yourself.

Seriously; why don't you??
I think you would rather just avoid addressing this direct question, or doing it, than having to admit you might be doing it a disservice.
Your opinions haven't changed despite numerous threads I think. Would another debate really amount to anything in regards changing your mind: the past suggests no.
So it seems from the get go it's just beating a dead horse from both sides. One side that is worried it's too much like wrestling the other it's not enough like wrestling.

Preventing them from getting involved. You can have a decent experience in the UK and Europe with them and at least there is something like this to serve the taiji community that want it. It's better than nothing as I see it. The continuous negativity from people with a connection to tai chi is frustrating, particularly when it comes from people who never bothered to have a go.

One minute you're all about the banter and you're fine, next you don't want to engage with me.
Ad hominem attack - that's over the top frankly. It's how I talk, and I've never been worried about being ignored, so that's fine too.

My tone might be rough and ready at times, but ok, whatever - you set the facts straight, it wasn't that painful.
I do apologise for repeating something that is no longer the case/ getting my facts wrong. Honest mistake, it happens.

[marvin8]

light randori is not the same as shiai. same with light rolling vs. a bjj tournament. same with an easy pickup game vs. an official match with a ref, scoreboard, etc. not sure why push hands would be any different. I think we're beating up a straw man pretty well, though.

Me neither. The same techniques, combinations and skills (e.g., punching, kicking, pull/counter, etc.) developed in pad work (energy/force drill) are used and look the same in real fight competitions (e.g., muay thai, MMA, boxing, etc.).

Here is a taiji sanda competition.

Szczeciński Klub Taijiquan
Published on Dec 10, 2017

A lot of noise, a lot of people… and a lot of fights based on Taijiquan grappling. Foootage from Taiji Sanda Competition, that was an evening part of „Chenjiagou International The First Tai Chi Chuan Exchange Competition China” organized by Chenjiagou Taijiquan Xuexiao in 2012. Footage featuring Wang Yan and Chen Jianqiang fighting. Chen Hui and Zhang Yanfei alternatively as the main referees, Chen Ziqiang nad Chen Jun sitting at judges desk.

Regarding the rules, it was allowed to kick the legs of the opponent and to punch the torso in order to destroy the opponent’s balance but the points were only granted for the clear throws and takedowns as well as pushes out of the fighting ground, i.e. the Carpet.

Grabing the protective armour was not allowed, but anyhow the armours were usually torn.

Film by: Szczeciński Klub Taijiquan
http://chenjiagou.szczecin.pl/:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc0QVgeh23I


Светлана Кобякова
Published on Feb 3, 2016

Chinese wrestling in Chenjiagou taijiquan school:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYoxNB1XSAE

[Steve James]

light randori is not the same as shiai. same with light rolling vs. a bjj tournament. same with an easy pickup game vs. an official match with a ref, scoreboard, etc. not sure why push hands would be any different. I think we're beating up a straw man pretty well, though.

Push hands competitions have done exactly nothing to increase the respect given to tcc. We're only talking about them now because they "look like wrestling." People rarely question the validity or effectiveness of wrestling.

[cloudz]

Cloudz (real name George, who I think is a Tai Chi student of Nick Osipczak) is simply wrong about that.

My real name is George as per my signature of course.
But I haven't seen Nick since last Xmas or there abouts, and I'm not even sure I would describe it as tai chi student either.

If I had said "I think" you have done 1 comp in BJJ, I guess that would have been a non attack like that one.
As I apologised, I think you owe me one now for repeating things that are not 100% accurate today.

How can you personally attack me that way trying to use your memory of all things, telling blatant lies about me. Gosh I'm sooo dissapointed LOL

[everything]

personally I found push hands quite helpful to learn before learning grappling. for me if it were more or less the same as light judo randori or light ground rolling ( I really don't like groundwork ), it would be perfect. as just some enjoyable training to work on some listening, etc. this is one of the reasons I've lost a lot of interest in MA and IMA and prefer to just hug the tree.

last night I was playing a futsal (like soccer) pickup game. we play really casual defense so the guys with no skill would just rip a shot. they were "winning" and maybe stupidly thought they were winning. the guys with a lot of skill were working on a lot more stuff. so it is in push hands etc. in a real match, those no skill guys are a huge liability. always losing the ball and making stupid decisions. no one gives them space for a shot so the one thing they can do in training is eliminated. they don't get or work on "position before submission" so to speak. I kinda can't stand training with them, and definitely can't have them on the team.

[cloudz]

Push hands competitions have done exactly nothing to increase the respect given to tcc. We're only talking about them now because they "look like wrestling." People rarely question the validity or effectiveness of wrestling.

Again you are wrong. On other non CMA/ Non CIMA MA boards they are about the ONLY thing that give taiji cred.
You talk too much without knowing much frankly.

I've also chatted people from other styles like BJJ at such tournaments that contradict your opinion.

[cloudz]

Here is a taiji sanda competition.

S

You can't call that sanda, it's not to me anyway.

That's what happens with these things - the striking becomes next to pointless and irrelivent.
In my opinion you either have to have the striking in properly or just keep it grappling based.
That kind of half way option is not ideal IMO. Better to keep Sanda as we know it to be.

Taiji/ kung fu grappling should (probably) be basically Chinese wrestling rules without the jackets and scoring zone outs added.
Over here we are not that far from that - it's just those across the pond need to work it out and stop projecting their lame hang ups over "push hands". boo hoo.

[everything]

maybe just do sumo rules? that seems like fun.

another super fun thing to do that is "martial" related is where you stand on one of those giant foam rolling logs and knock each other off with those giant foam "weapons". maybe one of the most fun things to do. you could use all your "advanced" push hands. my kids and i used to play king of the wall (kind of push each other off a tiny wall). since kids are honest and have no idea about "push hands" you can use all your push hands skills (but let them win). ... I guess I'm saying "anything but push hands"

[Steve James]

Again you are wrong. On other non CMA/ Non CIMA MA boards they are about the ONLY thing that give taiji cred.
You talk too much without knowing much frankly.

Well, that's just too fucking bad George. I don't follow non-cima boards.

Afa what I know, if push hands comps such as the one's you've posted are the only things that give tcc cred, that's because the tcc practitioners don't wrestle against other styles. If they do, it'd be great to see. However, I've already seen tcc practitioners going up against other styles. btdt. In those days, tcc in NYC was as respected as any other cma. There were no such things as push hands tournaments, or bagua tournaments, or xy, etc. But, we had children who were sparring --the way the majority of people were competitively fighting then.

I doubt you could tell me anything about those days if you think that push hands were what people respected.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73A0JmgM2xA

Those people who are training today would do well to do or become familiar with what people are doing today. If ground work had been part of the rule set back then, people would have had to adapt. There were arguments in the 90s about whether tcc had ground work. Today, lots of people are studying bjj (:)). Whooppee, great idea. Great discovery.

No, you don't need to point out that I'm being sarcastic.

[Steve James]

Ok, off topic, but I found some clips from my old school at tournaments. The oldest ones are from my time. Well, the video is kinda corny, but it was produced by enthusiastic students. Turn off the music. I'm not saying any of this is good technique, btw. I'm just saying that this is the way it was. Fun, too. (Don't bother telling me it looks like kickboxing, not tcc).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2b8PGMvSVQ

[johnwang]

Don't bother telling me it looks like kickboxing, not tcc.

Here is my concern. If I want to fight like a kickboxing, or Sanda, or wrestler, I will train kickboxing, or Sanda, or wrestling. Why should I train Taiji?