Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:30 am

johnwang wrote:Black cat or whit cat, if it can

- catch rat, it's good cat.
- not catch rat, it's bad cat.

After this many years, we should accept that the Taiji combat training was long gone.



If that is true then TCMA is the perfect example of a bad cat.
The combat training is long gone.

I can show you examples of TCC being used in grappling formats with leg skill. I can and have shown you taiji guy mopping up a Chinese wrestler - remember that ?
I can show you taiji guys fighting in Sanda style comps. A practitioner from the UK has already been referenced on this thread who went into MMA training in TCC. That's coming from a small percentage of a larger community that tends to look down its nose at its own fighters - what there are left of them. Or doesn't even take that side of the art in the way you would expect in what an average person calls a martial art.

But that brigade that looks down at combat sport as "just this or that generic fighting xyz" is rampant across Chinese styles not just Taiji.

I can show you as much from Taiji people than any average single TCMA style out there. There are others too, but to in any way suggest or think that there is more quality and or quantity across TCMA as a whole is laughable. That should be made clear I think if you're going to sit there and repeatedly single out taiji in that respect. It really shows that your narrative is little more than someone blinkered who only sees what they want to see. I think the reality is that Taiji simply reflects as accurately as any mumber of Chinese style the state of combat in TCMA. Simple as that.

Sorry to break it to you but all your beloved Kung Fu/ TCMA or whatever you want to call it has been a pile of broken shit (a "bad cat") for a very long time.
It has taken the rise of Sanda to gain any kind of respectability combat wise. The whole kung fu style culture belongs in antiquity where combat is concerned; and you share so much of that culture it's absurd and embarressing you even say some of the things you do frankly.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:41 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:33 am

Graham can explain his position better than I. My point "duh" was that he was right that the phs competitions (cited) looked like wrestling with all the fun bits taken out. You posted that the British phs competitions had plenty of fun bits (including throws, iinm). I looked up the rules for the competitions that you encouraged anyone interested to observe.

I posted some rules I found interesting, specifically that techniques were limited to peng, lu, ji, an, etc. I found that interesting because I was not used to people comparing tcc jins to wrestling techniques. Bruce P. gave a breakdown (that I enjoyed from my perspective), but which ime has been the key debate in the modern (post 1990) tcc community. That is, whether tcc biomechanics and techniques are special or fundamentally different from the biomechanics of other sports or human activities -such as golf, baseball, or even wrestling and boxing. That is the whole point of the qi/ki/aiki/internal strength arguments, and such arguments just create enemies for no good reason --so I keep out of them.

Anyway, in the examples of phs competitions that have been offered, I have found it impossible to distinguish between tcc techniques and simple wrestling techniques. Maybe someone can see more. But, there doesn't seem to be a need to call it a tcc competition --which is not to argue that the competitions shouldn't happen.

As I said, when I competed, there were simply competitions. At the time, striking was the thing. So, even though our school had a few NCAA wrestlers, the sport was focused on kicking and striking. Guess what? If you look at old videos of bouts, they'd look a lot like kick-boxing. I've said it here a few times: some people said that it wasn't "tai chi." However, our push hands used peng, lu, ...etc., in a striking context.

But, we didn't do push hands to practice for competition. We trained for competition by putting on gloves and headgear and sparring just as we'd do in competition using skills developed in push hands. What's changed today is the separation of tcc from the rest of the ma community. We believed that tcc was just another form of gongfu when it came to self-defense. A practitioner didn't need special consideration or special environment in which to compete.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:42 pm

1. I'm sure Taiji can be used in combat when the system was created.
2. I'm also sure that ancient Taiji masters did not fight like MMA guys or wrestlers. If today's Taiji guy fights like a MMA guy or wrestler, why not just train MMA or wrestling to start with?
3. So how was the ancient Taiji masters fighting should look like? Since we can't find any Taiji combat video in the past 60 years, our search have come to an end. This was why I believe that Taiji combat training was long gone.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby windwalker on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:43 pm

"Sorry to break it to you but all your beloved Kung Fu/ TCMA or whatever you want to call it has been a pile of broken shit (a "bad cat") for a very long time.

It has taken the rise of Sanda to gain any kind of respectability combat wise. The whole kung fu style culture belongs in antiquity where combat is concerned"

While I agree with the main thrust of the points I would also say that I view Sanda, as a logical extension of traditional CMA usage in modern times. As such in many traditional gyms, Sanda is often viewed as its own style, that may or may not reflect the traditional method being taught, a separate way of training for different reasons.

Regarding the Styles themselves, the same arguments mention are the same things that have been said for quite some time, . It's up to the practitioner to find out what their practice is really about.

What CMA has lost or doesn't do much of any more publicly is validation.

A very stark contrast with the past were all the stories are about those who went out and validated their work.

One might ask why is this so. I would say business , tradition, and a culture that seeks to preserve its traditions. Different times.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:23 pm

May be we should make our discussion simple. Will a Taiji "foot sweep" be any different from a long fist "foot sweep"?
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:31 am

johnwang wrote:May be we should make our discussion simple. Will a Taiji "foot sweep" be any different from a long fist "foot sweep"?


That is the wrong question for starters. If you want to get anywhere, you first need to start framing your questions in a way that doesn't give credence to the chinese style nonsense that has gone before. but really, your question is a bit silly - all chinese foot sweeps are the same technique. You might as well ask if Floyd Mayweathers uppercut is different from Manny Pacquiaou's. Isn't it a silly pointless question. The questions that matter are simple, and that is not a question that matters one bit (to me)..

Let me give you an analogy of why it's a bit absurd: it like 2 fresh boxers starting training arguing which style they think is better to emulate. One guy wants to do Lamachenko style boxing and the other guy wants to do Mayweather boxing. They then proceed to argue how and why they are different, the pro's and cons and everything in between.

But actually what they should be focusing on and thinking about is the essence of the techniques, the strategies, the footwork; everything, so actually thay arm themselves with the tools to develop their own style of fighting. They can do that at either gym and learning either style. Because in the end it's all connected and related to eachother.

People that don't fight rely on "style" to prop up their imagination of what they are doing or think they are working towards. It's a whole other thing to train a form and be locked into the idealology that you should or can emulate them without a foundation or ability to fight in the first place. I would also argue that Chinese forms did not develop based on direct and regular fight experience. I think people that believe modernity doesn't trump antiquity on several levels in this regard are living im a kung fu fantasy. We are in a thread discussing competition. Show me a Traditional Kung Fu system that can or has suceeded in the modern elite arena's of combat without modification to training methods etc.

To borrow the tag line of this thread: Prove me wrong! LOL

Whilst the old timers may certainly have fought differently from modern fighters; to think they would be succesful is a whole other thing. I really think it's wishful thinking based on what evidence there is.

Wang Xiang Zhai in his great wisdom saw that TCMA had turned into nonsense, fragmented, diluted and perverted by "stylists".. His effort clearly strips things back to essentials and seperates techniques from the style and system to a large extent - they certainly don't seem to define it. Most techniques of chin na and shuai in CMA are generic across Chinese arts - where the differences are quite stylistic and superfluous. The principles that underly techniques and make them work are universal. Same sort of thing with strikes; how many versions or styles of side kick do you need ?

Exactly. All you need is your sidekick that works for you. it was always like that; we are just swapping Lu Chan for Lamachenko to illustrate such points. Skill, power it's not style specific, in the end nothing is.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:08 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:48 am

johnwang wrote:1. I'm sure Taiji can be used in combat when the system was created.
2. I'm also sure that ancient Taiji masters did not fight like MMA guys or wrestlers. If today's Taiji guy fights like a MMA guy or wrestler, why not just train MMA or wrestling to start with?
3. So how was the ancient Taiji masters fighting should look like? Since we can't find any Taiji combat video in the past 60 years, our search have come to an end. This was why I believe that Taiji combat training was long gone.


Ancient masters didn't need to fight barehand which is probably why they didn't (much) and were probably shit at it by todays standard.
I think they more likely came up with challenges that would let them walk away relatively unharmed for the most part.

I know that's incredibly hard to accept, but it might actually be true. all the evidence suggests that that would be the most likely case.
There are good accounts of how the last big competition of the 'old days' (1920's) went down.
The TCMA masters that should have been able to prove your point couldn't!

The present builds on the past and surpasses it; that's how it has been in many areas of life you care to name.
Now you want to believe that barehanded Chinese MA bucks that universal trend and on top of that a persuit that relies heavily on athletic performance and so on.

keep dreaming that dream eh.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:03 am

Steve James wrote:Graham can explain his position better than I. .


Here's a hint. Graham is now deep into BJJ post taiji.
The guy in the OP clip became a BJJ guy after being a tai chi/ push hands guy.

See the connection there. I believe he's suggesting to us that it's more "fun" having more techniques open and available to use and compete with.

That can certainly be the case, I don't see that as controversial if you translate greater variety of technique as "fun".
But that automatically means mma is more fun thean boxing.. but is it really. Sure that depends on the person and how they experience, what they have experienced and how they measure their "fun". For many people grappling on the floor just isn't what they think is a fun idea. Oh well.

If X is "fun" for someone that's absolutely great. I currently attend BJJ classes on Saturday mornings precisely because I find it fun and interesting.
The depth of learning in that art is frightening.

After x years doing something : like stand up grappling/ wrestling it can get stale.
I sometimes found myself not enjoying it as much as when I began. I would often use various different rulesets in my own training as I happen to like variety and cross training.

That doesn't mean it can't be a lot of fun getting there (stand up grappling), but sometimes you need something fresh and different. Be it free style wrestling sub grappling etc. For some people that could be push hands comps for others BJJ comps so on and so forth.

It's all relative man' Fun that is.
The other point I refuse to address lol, ok only a bit: one only need look up the definition of wrestling and or grappling in a dictionary for christs sake. But of course taiji/ cma people need to make a thing about it because of some semantic naming issue apparently. Jesus where have we ended up !
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:35 am

Here's a hint. Graham is now deep into BJJ post taiji.
The guy in the OP clip became a BJJ guy after being a tai chi/ push hands guy.


I don't see the point in discussing someone's reasons for doing anything in the third person. I know that Graham does bjj and xingyi.

Afa tcc, I think loads of people start it with the idea that it is superior and will make them superior. That's not unusual, and it's the reason many people get into martial arts in the first place. A (push hands champ) friend of mine says that "weak people take up martial arts to become strong." That's certainly true in my case. I was picked on, so I took up self defense.

Anyway, bjj is probably a lot of fun. It's a great way to stay in shape, compared to push hands comps.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:27 am

It's a great way to stay in shape, compared to push hands comps.


based on your zero experience in competition moving step and bjj, obviously.


:D
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby cloudz on Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:36 am

Steve James wrote:
Here's a hint. Graham is now deep into BJJ post taiji.
The guy in the OP clip became a BJJ guy after being a tai chi/ push hands guy.


I don't see the point in discussing someone's reasons for doing anything in the third person. I know that Graham does bjj and xingyi.



It's always fun discussing Graham in the third person, see fun, that's the point of this thread.
Having me some too, how about you, you, you :)
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby Steve James on Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:54 am

cloudz wrote:
It's a great way to stay in shape, compared to push hands comps.


based on your zero experience in competition moving step and bjj, obviously.

:D


Yep, you're right. I think both are great ways to exercise... based on my zero experience in both.
I' also think that both can be lots of fun.
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby BruceP on Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:23 pm

Just re-read this thread
Golly, a person only needs one tournament under their bjj black belt these days?
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby GrahamB on Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:33 am

BruceP wrote:Just re-read this thread
Golly, a person only needs one tournament under their bjj black belt these days?


Hi Bruce,

Since you've asked, and for the record, I've competed more than once.

Cloudz (real name George, who I think is a Tai Chi student of Nick Osipczak) is simply wrong about that.

I've competed in 3 local tournaments and one international. 4 is not many, I agree, but I started BJJ later in life when I have a family and career that come first. I also picked up a pretty nasty injury at brown belt that puts me off competing with it. Also I went off comps after the international one - just decided it wasn't worth it for me since I didn't really enjoy it (plus it just feels like a money earner for the IBJJF at least to me anyway).

Competitions are now pretty expensive in the UK and all happen at weekends. I simply have more important things to spend my time and money on at my age of life. Also, when you're in the Master 4 category it's hard to get a fair fight since there aren't many Master 4 competitors around, for the same reasons. So you usually get bumped up in weight or age and have to fight people heavier/younger.

Not that I think it matters for getting a black belt 'these days'. BJJ has moved on in that respect with a more 'BJJ for everyone' attitude. I'm whatever belt my teacher tells me I am. That's it as far as I'm concerned. Competitions don't come into it. I train 3 times a week and roll each class with all levels, sizes and ages, and just try and enjoy it. I'm often one of the oldest on the mat and it's pretty hard to keep up with the young guns, but that's part of the challenge :).

I think when somebody resorts to ad hominem attacks (also with wrong facts, in this case) instead of debating the point of the thread then it says perhaps more about their character, and it's better to just not engage with them. But since you asked me and I respect you, I've answered. I don't see what it's got to do with the question I asked at the start of this thread.

Hope everybody gets back to training at some point.

G
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Re: Prove me wrong: Push hands competitions

Postby BruceP on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:04 am

Hey Graham

Thanks for setting the record straight.

I've only got as many bjj competitions under my belt as you have, and a handful of push-hands. Stephan Kesting reffed one (maybe a couple) of my first matches and I matched up against him the following year as I only ever entered the advanced divisions. Won a few matches and lost most, but I always thought it more productive in researching my tjq to get beat by the best than to beat the rest. I'm a white belt in almost everything.

As for tai chi guys needing to get out more, they should bring in more. Organizers of PH competitions should go out of their way to include Greco-Roman and Freestyle wrestlers, as well as Judo and Sambo players, in their tournaments.
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