the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I think push hands competitions are wrestling competitions with all the fun moves taken out.

Prove me wrong.

Well, when push hands is turned into a competition, the goal is winning in any way that is allowed. That could be wrestling or striking. It's not going to look like what people expect of tcc.

However, that doesn't mean that tcc skills can't be used in grappling or striking.

Striking in a push hands competition? Never seen that.....

Pretty much agree, pH competitions like this are more like sumo with no striking, to me.

can't even watch it, but sumo is pretty awesome.

GrahamB wrote:Striking in a push hands competition? Never seen that.....

What you've seen is irrelevant . If one wants to argue that there's no striking in push hands, then the logical conclusion would be that there's no striking in tcc. In a push hands or tcc competition, one might expect to see strikes. If there's a push hands competition with no strikes, it's because strikes are not permitted in the rule set. If people define that as push hands --and say, for ex., that "striking hands" is something else-- that's their definition and fine.

I'm not really arguing against your point, Graham. Alls I'm saying is that when people wrestle or strike, it tends to look similar. Push hands, imo, is an exercise to train things. It has to be cooperative. If not, people inevitably resort to the techniques that work. Often, it looks like struggling, not like what people expect "tcc" to look like. In fact, when a tcc "master" goes up against a basic mma guy, it doesn't even look like tcc when he loses. Otoh, if he does ok, people will say it looks like wrestling or kick-boxing (boo).

Ya can't win by depending on peoples' expectations.

Steve, I was specifically talking about Push hands Competitions, not just "push hands" (which can be anything) - there are pretty standard and accepted rule sets for competitions that vary only slightly from each other. We don't need to philosophise on what push hands might or might not be.

oragami_itto wrote:Pretty much agree, pH competitions like this are more like sumo with no striking, to me.

You seriously underestimate Sumo!

And recently we see that wrestlers are training some push hands
to be able to compete in PH.
Since PH has rules like - no grabbing -
Why not have a rule that the ref breaks it up similar to a clinch
when they use force against force.?

GrahamB wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:Pretty much agree, pH competitions like this are more like sumo with no striking, to me.

You seriously underestimate Sumo!

Naw I've got lots of respect for sumo, and wrestling too.

I suppose I should say it looks like BAD sumo

Steve, I was specifically talking about Push hands Competitions, not just "push hands" (which can be anything) - there are pretty standard and accepted rule sets for competitions

See, but that's the thing. Push hands is not a competition. It's not that "push hands" has stuff and "push hands competitions" don't. That's like saying that tennis has stuff that tennis competitions don't.

Push hands competitions are often exactly what you said: stand up grappling. And it's hard to tell the difference. My point was that "push hands" was not a competition. I seriously doubt that YLC or other fighters competed with other martial artist using push hands. I doubt there were ever "tcc" or "bg" or "xy" competitions, too. There were just martial arts competitions or fights.

I'm talking about the opposite of philosophy. A push hands competition takes a training exercise and turns it into a competition. I'm not against the result, btw. I know guys who compete in these tournaments who are good martial artists. My point was that they look like they're conforming to the rule set, whether it's called Push hands or grappling. Neither word defines what it is. It is what it is.

Can you show any different?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNXnxCpjUNM

I don't get the need to reinvent the wheel except for:

- private school high school students who are trying to "win" some obscure sport for their stupid college essay
- people who want some "cultural" experience or to advocate for (chinese in this case, but happens with sumo, etc., etc., too and ok that's cool I guess.) their culture.

otherwise why not just stick to the MOST popular grappling format competitions? the level of competitors is going to be much higher as a result, so you will learn much more. do judo, bjj, cross over those, the no gi ones, etc. why stick in your isolated bubble? your taijiquan should help you. if not, ugh. apologies to josh waitzkin i suppose. there is a third case apparently:

3. you were world champion in one thing and achieving "world champion" in something else helps your shtick.

Considering the number of top end push hands champions that also study BJJ, I would agree.

Now if they allowed striking and throwing...it would be MMA...although probably not very good MMA. Because you know the "realz tehniquez iz two deadly." Huuuaaaah! Thumbs nose like Bruce Lee. Turns around and walks off.

haha yeah. i think to be fair to josh, he earned his black belt under bjj under marcelo garcia, supposedly the pound for pound best grappler in the world (many results in open weight class despite being a small person)

GrahamB wrote:I think push hands competitions are wrestling competitions with all the fun moves taken out.

Has anyone claimed anything else?